1. Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Featured The Immortal Soul?

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Darrell C, Jan 26, 2018.

  1. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2010
    Messages:
    8,735
    Likes Received:
    242
    Faith:
    Baptist
    First, let me say that I do not believe Scripture teaches there is "an immortal soul" in a context dealing with man's make-up. I take the view that man is a two-part being, made up of body and Spirit, and is a soul, rather than "has a soul."

    I do believe that immortality is promised to those who believe, hence, when we enter into eternity, we will be "immortal souls" (persons)...


    1 Corinthians 15:53
    King James Version (KJV)

    53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.



    I also believe that the unsaved can be viewed as being "immortal spirits," because nowhere in Scripture do we see that spirits of men or Angels cease to exist (though as to the spirits of animals we can only speculate), quite the opposite, they too will live on forever in a state of death, which is the same death all men are born into, who are in need of the Life Jesus came to bestow upon men:


    John 6:53
    King James Version (KJV)

    53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.



    And I will open the discussion with those points.


    God bless.
     
  2. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    32,913
    Likes Received:
    71
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    When a person dies the body is decaying - the body is returning to dust.
    But the person is in a dormant state - their spirit has gone to God and is dormant as 1Thess 4 states. Does not matter if they are good or evil - all are dormant and Paul says in 1 Thess 4 "they have fallen asleep"
     
  3. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2010
    Messages:
    8,735
    Likes Received:
    242
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I don't see a dormant state here...


    Luke 16:22-24
    King James Version (KJV)

    22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;

    23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

    24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.



    Nor do I see that all spirits go to God:


    Matthew 25:44-46
    King James Version (KJV)

    44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?

    45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.

    46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.



    We know what it means to go into everlasting punishment:


    Matthew 25:41
    King James Version (KJV)

    41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:



    And we know that sleep is a euphemism for death:


    John 11:11-13
    King James Version (KJV)

    11 These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.

    12 Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well.

    13 Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.



    Now, the two errors we see in the doctrine of annihilation is that men impose into Scripture two things that is not there:

    First, they make the term "soul" mean the spirit of a man, hence they read many Old Testament passages like this...


    Job 7:9
    King James Version (KJV)

    9 As the cloud is consumed and vanisheth away: so he that goeth down to the grave shall come up no more.



    ...and...


    Job 33:28
    King James Version (KJV)

    28 He will deliver his soul from going into the pit, and his life shall see the light.



    ...and conclude that man, when he dies, goes into a physical grave and lies there, dormant, until the resurrection.

    And I hope to look at these various issues in this thread.


    God bless.
     
  4. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    34,002
    Likes Received:
    837
    Faith:
    Baptist
    You then deny an eternal Hell?
     
  5. One Baptism

    One Baptism Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 5, 2015
    Messages:
    1,597
    Likes Received:
    20
    No real disagreement here [at least upon my part], hence see my previous thread - Immortal Soul/Spirit Theology, Part Of The False Gospel, Practicers Of Necromancy

    There might be some further discussion however, on what, is believed, according to scripture, happens upon [the first] death, and the second death of any persons. For instance, some incorrectly teach that upon the first death of any person they are immediately rewarded with either eternal punishments/torments in hell/fire, or are enraptured in the joys of Heaven.

    Also, there may be further discussion in regards the sustained 'life experience' / 'character' of that "spirit" which returns unto God at first death of the person.
     
  6. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2010
    Messages:
    8,735
    Likes Received:
    242
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Now how in the world do you come to that conclusion?


    God bless.
     
  7. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2010
    Messages:
    8,735
    Likes Received:
    242
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Welcome to the thread, One Baptism.

    Rather not chase down links, so lets make this a discussion from start to finish.


    Sounds good to me. I will start that issue with saying that the First death we look at in regards to man's state when he is conceived and born is the death he is born into. In other words, man is born dead because he has not the Life Christ came to bestow upon the world. This could be termed spiritual death, and is the condition of every man born into the world (with the exception of Christ). That is the condition that must be remedied, or, when he dies physically separated from God, he enters into eternity in the same state he was born into, and when he/she is judged, will enter into the Second Death, which is the Resurrection unto Damnation (The First Resurrection being the Resurrection unto Life).

    A beginning text to support that view:


    John 6:48-53
    King James Version (KJV)

    48 I am that bread of life.

    49 Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.

    50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.

    51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

    52 The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat?

    53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.



    The source for this life is defined by Christ as His flesh, or in other words, His dying on the Cross in the stead of the sinner. Eating of that flesh, and drinking of the blood is faith in Christ itself, and specifically in His Atoning Work.

    And this subject itself deserves its own thread, though it is relevant to coming to a proper understanding of man's condition and what happens to him when he dies and is judged.


    Continued...
     
  8. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2010
    Messages:
    8,735
    Likes Received:
    242
    Faith:
    Baptist
    That is simply the teaching of Scripture. Christ teaches a dead unbeliever in Hades in torment, and in that Age, Lazarus in "the Bosom of Abraham," a Jewish euphemism for Sheol/Hades.

    In this Age believers go to be with Christ in Heaven (for that is where He is):


    2 Corinthians 5:6-8
    King James Version (KJV)

    6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:

    7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight:)

    8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.



    The context in this chapter is Paul desiring, not to die, but to be glorified in the Rapture. The context is specific to what happens to men when they die.

    And again, we have to carefully distinguish between what happened to men in past Ages and what takes place now that Christ has opened the Holiest of All (Heaven) that the spirits of men might come into the presence of God (and this too deserves its own thread, but again is relevant to the current discussion).



    That is in fact the purpose of this thread. To show that through some minor errors in understanding, some have embraced Annihilation and Soul Sleep. Whereas I will present a Scriptural Basis for the view that all men will live eternally, though unbelievers will do so in the same state of death and separation they are born into, whereas believers (and the Just of the Old Testament will live on and actually have eternal life, because they are indwelt eternally by God, Who is Eternal Life.


    God bless.
     
  9. One Baptism

    One Baptism Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 5, 2015
    Messages:
    1,597
    Likes Received:
    20
    Thank you, but it will be some time between posts for me. The internet is really iffy here.

    As you will, though some of the very material presented in your responses so far, are responded to already given in that link, and was so was given for a reference.

    No real disagreement. Before Christ [in us], we are indeed dead in trespasses and sins, agreed. Carnal. Lost. At enmity with God. Condemned. etc.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  10. One Baptism

    One Baptism Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 5, 2015
    Messages:
    1,597
    Likes Received:
    20
    Assertion before evidence. Cart before horse. Self defined and stated apriori. That part of the response may be ignored for this reason. Let us stay to the texts as closely as possible.

    Assertion before evidence. Cart before horse. Self defined and stated apriori. That may also be ignored for that reason. In order to use the passage of Luke 16 in a justification for your [or my] belief, it must first be shown from the text, not simply asserted, that it teaches such. In order to determine whether the text is evidence for or against the assertion it must first be gone into in studied [prayerfully] detail, using the scriptural methods/rules which God laid out in scripture [KJB] for us.

    However, before going into it or any other text or passages, please decide on one, and let us consider it. If you want to consider Luke 16 [KJB] in context, etc, we can.

    Assertion before evidence. We need to go into each passage in detail, not simply cite and assert.

    Before moving onto a completely different text and context from Luke 16 [to 2 Corinthians 5], please choose one to look at first, then we may incorporate others as we consider the immediate context of each first.

    If you want to look at 2 Corinthians 5:6-8 KJB, we can, but please choose between this and Luke 16. Otherwise we will have entirely too much on the table at once. We should go slowly, ask questions of the text, and one another, to make sure that we are coming into agreement with the text itself. The word of God is Truth [John 17:17 KJB], since JEHOVAH is eternal truth [Deuteronomy 32:4; Psalms 31:5; Isaiah 65:16; John 14:6, etc], our assertions/apriori are not necessarily so.

    A question might be, Do I agree with the what the text says in its words? And my answer is, "Yes". Yet, I would supect you would say the same. Why then the two conclusions about what those words say/teach? Therein is the matter for discussion/study, to find out where either of us is incorrect, or both. Yet again, please choose one to begin with.

    There are assertions being made [though behind them are scripture references, but I cannot aford to assume where you are drawing from], without evidence again. Cart before horse. I do not mean to tire anyone with this repetition, but it is happening each time. Slowly, please. I do not jump to your conclusions, because I do not begin with your assertions, nor apriori. I read the same words, but come to differing conclusions based upon what those very words in the scriptural references mean, as they are defined in scripture itself, according to its own internal rules.

    So far, I have seen no demonstration from the scripture [KJB] that the belief/teaching of "annihilation" or "soul sleep" are in error, in any way, and even the two passages thus mentioned [without any study therein] so far, I agree with 100% and are not detrimental in the least to those two teachings/beliefs/doctrines. Presently, I have seen assertion before demonstration and evidence. Not attempting to be harsh or unkind in any way. I love the idea of the thread to discuss/study the scripture together, and that you have invited me and asked me to do that with yourself, but the practice part of it is missing so far.

    Ok, that is fair to attempt, but if you will please begin with a single passage that we may look at. So far, both Luke 16 and 2 Corinthians 5 have been cited, but not studied together. To simply assert that they provide evidence for your theological belief [as you say], is not real evidence that they do so.

    Also, it would be easier if it were just between you and I, instead of responding to everyone else [on both our parts], but its up to you,

    Has what I said made sense so far?
     
    #10 One Baptism, Jan 30, 2018
    Last edited: Jan 30, 2018
  11. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2010
    Messages:
    8,735
    Likes Received:
    242
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Not entirely accurate. I gave supporting Scripture for my statement which was given so we could discuss it, lol:

    It can be said "Assertion before evidence," but, you choose erroneously to ignore the evidence given. You are free to show why Paul is not teaching here that we do not, as believers, go to Heaven to be with the Lord.


    If you would like me to give a Scripture reference for every statement I make, I can do that, but, because most are familiar with Luke 16 (particularly those who embrace Soul Sleep or Annihilation), and the fact I have already quoted Luke 16,I did not see any reason for doing so again.

    Nevertheless...

    Here you will find the evidence that supports my statement...


    You are free to challenge anything in the statement, but, you cannot affirn your own assertion it is given without evidence (Scriptural Support).


    Done.

    ;)


    Well, keep in mind that we are only just beginning this discussion, and I am not opposed to a focus on any particular issue that arises, so just let me know if there is anything you would like to look at more in depth. So far what I have given is simply for the purpose of giving us something to examine.


    Well, a good place to start might be the OP itself, and the assertion that the term "soul" is misused, and contributes to the errors we see in Soul Sleep and Annihilation.

    If one views the "soul" as an immaterial aspect of man, it is understandable why they would give statements concerning "souls perishing" for example, or "souls going into the pit" an eternal context. My goal is to examine that and see the temporal application and how that impacts one's understanding of Scripture as a whole.


    I don't really see a need, myself, because I have already given what I view to be relevant to the discussion already, the burden is now on you to show why my assertions might be in error, or why I cannot give application of them from my own Theological, Soteriological, or Eschatological viewpoint.


    Continued...
     
  12. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2010
    Messages:
    8,735
    Likes Received:
    242
    Faith:
    Baptist
    First, I have to ask that when you quote me make sure it is only what I have said that you quote. You can accomplish this by highlighting my statement in the post you wish to respond to and hitting "QUOTE" when the prompt appears. You can break up what I have said as you like, highlghting then hitting quote, then go to the bottom of the page and in the response section you will see "Insert Quotes." Hit that, and another box with what you have quoted will come up and you just hit quote and they will be transferred to the response box. You can then address each statement as you like.

    But its vital not to give others the impression a member has said something he or she hasn't said.

    In regards to "assertion before evidence," this...



    ...cannot be made to mean anything but that we go to be with the Lord when we die.

    I have given my "evidence," the burden is on you to show why Paul means something else (other than what I said it means).


    Just respond to each one as they come, and if we need to discuss it more (which is usually the case), we will do so. But we can't look at anything until they are given.

    And each reference given was as a counterpoint to what you have said.


    I like a busy table, lol.

    You are welcome to choose anything you want to focus on.


    I'm okay with that, One Baptism, whatever helps to keep the discussion going is fine with me. You just let me know what it is you would like to focus on.


    That goes without saying, which is why I have given Scripture to support my assertions.

    As already mentioned, the primary reason people come to two different conclusions can usually be pointed out. When it comes to whether a "soul is immortal" or not, the first problem is making the soul refer to the immaterial aspect of man. That is why "Soul Sleep" is a doctrine of some, because of references of "soul's sleeping."

    Secondly is the failure to see "sleep" as a euphemism for death, hence some see "souls sleeping in graves" means the spirits of men and women reside in graves when they die, rather than going to be with the Lord (if they are saved) or going to Hades (if they are lost) when they die.

    That is the focus of the thread.


    Continued...
     
  13. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2010
    Messages:
    8,735
    Likes Received:
    242
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Again, there is not going to be a Scripture reference for every statement I make, lol. I can do that if you like, but I have learned to try to limit the lengths of the posts due to complaints by those who do not appreciate longer, more in depth responses.

    This statement is something that I am fully prepared to support, so if this, or anything I say demands further explanation, just let me know, I will be glad to give a post dedicated to whatever it is you would like clarified.

    I will do this now, since you seem to be asking...

    First, I have given Luke 16 which shows the Lord teaching two men who died going somewhere other than Heaven. The rich man in Hades, which is commonly known to refer to the place of the dead, a Greek term and concept that parallels the Old Testament's concept of Hades (and this is affirmed by Christ because He uses the term in His teaching.

    The rich man into "Abraham's bosom," which not so well known, but a Jewish Euphemism for "the side of the two-part Sheol/Hades where the Just reside." That is from Jewish tradition and therefore not a Biblical concept, but again we see the Lord Himself teaching the concept and it agrees with the traditional belief that was held.

    Either way, we do not see either the spirit ceasing to exist (as the Sadducees believed happened, an error addressed by the Lord (Matthew 22:29)), or "sleeping" as it is taught to mean, as in the taking of rest, rather than being a euphemism for death, which is another error the Lord clarified to His disciples in the case of Lazarus, which I will give the Scripture for:


    John 11:12-14
    King James Version (KJV)

    12 Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well.

    13 Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.

    14 Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.



    Going back to whether men entered into the presence of God in the Old Testament, just a few passages to consider:


    Hebrews 9:8-9
    King James Version (KJV)

    8 The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:

    9 Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;



    The Holy of Holies of the earthly Tabernacle was a figure, a parable of the True Holy of Holies. The way into the Holiest of All was not made manifest while that one was still standing, meaning, as long as the Covenant of Law was in effect the way into the Holiest of All was not open to men.

    Now let's see the Writer define the Holiest of All:


    Hebrews 9:23-24
    King James Version (KJV)

    23 It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.

    24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:



    He (the Writer) is not done yet:


    Hebrews 10:18-20
    King James Version (KJV)

    18 Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.

    19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,

    20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;



    The point being that the High Priest of Levitical Service was the only man allowed to "enter into God's presence," and this only in the earthly Holy Place (the second Chamber of the Tabernacle). And this...only once a year. And that Priest offered up sacrifice which could not make the comer thereunto perfect (complete), or take away sins (Hebrews 10:1-4).

    But Christ has entered into the Holiest of All through the offering of Himself, and opened the way for men to come into the presence of God when they die. That is why Paul states that if we are absent from the body we are present with the Lord.

    One more:


    Hebrews 6:18-20
    King James Version (KJV)

    18 That by two immutable things, in which it was impossible for God to lie, we might have a strong consolation, who have fled for refuge to lay hold upon the hope set before us:

    19 Which hope we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and stedfast, and which entereth into that within the veil;

    20 Whither the forerunner is for us entered, even Jesus, made an high priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.



    The "forerunner" is the concept of a small boat going into harbor with a line to secure the larger ship. Christ has entered into "that within the veil," which is GOd's presence in Heaven.


    Continued...
     
  14. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2010
    Messages:
    8,735
    Likes Received:
    242
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Too late.

    ;)


    Not really. Enough Scripture had been given which should have received a challenge to the assertions.


    I understand, so now it is your turn to refute what I have said.


    Agreed.

    Scripture is the best commentary on Scripture.


    You are quoting the intent of the thread, lol. I will show that "through some minor errors in understanding, some have embraced Annihilation and Soul Sleep." THis is not my first ride on this pony, lol.


    Both are self evident to the point they were given to make.

    We see the lord teach a conscious afterlife, and we see Paul teach that believers go to be with the Lord when they die. There is simply no other way to interpret "...to be absent from the body (dead, in the context) is to be present with the Lord.



    "Agreeing" is a given for everyone, usually. Its either that or deny the veracity of Scripture.


    Not really.


    Don't worry, One Baptism, you are not going to insult me, so speak freely, please.


    That would be a matter of perspective. There was plenty for you to oppose already given.

    Keep in mind that most of what has been said already was for the purpose of stirring up the conversation. Again, we needed some direction to go in, and there was enough for anyone who embraces Soul Sleep or Annihilation to refute.

    We have only just begun. We have not even begun to look at the focus of the OP, which deals with the primary error, which is the belief "souls are destroyed."

    This is a great study, and quite a bit of fun as well, though it also takes quite a bit of work for both sides.


    Continued...
     
  15. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2010
    Messages:
    8,735
    Likes Received:
    242
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I gave two in the OP which were for the purpose of providing a point which denies Annihilation, and in general looks at the cessation of the "soul" as taught by Annihilationistism.

    So we can begin with either of those if you like, or, a passage you feel supports Annihilation. I leave that choice to you.


    We can do that if you like.


    I agree, so you can show why they don't support my view by addressing what I said when I gave them.


    You can ignore any other responses, but I address every post given to me, unless I have already stated I will not (for example, a member keeps reiterating the same arguments already addressed).

    That won't interfere with our own discussion, my friend.


    For the most part, yes, though I view "assertion before evidence" to be a little off base, because most assertions were provided with a Scriptural Basis.

    But I don't assume to make demands of how a discussion must go, I'd rather leave it up to those I am having a discussion with, so if you want to respond to one of the passages in the OP that is fine, or give a supporting text for your view, that is fine also.


    God bless.
     
  16. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    32,913
    Likes Received:
    71
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian


    Don't look in parables for that doctrine. that would be step 1.

    Look in John 11 and 1 Thess 4 for the "dormant state" of the soul between death and the resurrection.

    Lasts for ever... the punishment will last... not the punishING
     
  17. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    32,913
    Likes Received:
    71
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    1 Thess 4
    13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.
     
  18. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2010
    Messages:
    8,735
    Likes Received:
    242
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Its not a parable. Show me a parable that uses actual names of persons we know had lived.

    And don't say "The Parable of the Rich Man and Lazarus." lol

    Even if one considers it a parable, even parables teach truths, not fiction.


    Better yet, show us "dormant sleep" in these passages.

    You give this...


    ...yet cannot see the correlation between those who sleep and those who are...

    ...dead.

    He's not talking about those who are asleep and those who are dead, lol. both are the same. That he uses the term sleep is nothing new, and no different than Christ using it here:


    John 11:11-14
    King James Version (KJV)

    11 These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.

    12 Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well.

    13 Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.

    14 Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.



    "Sleep" is a euphemism for death, just as we might say someone has "passed away."

    So look at your proof text again:


    1 Thessalonians 4:13-18
    King James Version (KJV)

    13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

    14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

    15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

    16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

    17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

    18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.



    "Sleep" refers to them being dead. The context is one of physical resurrection. A dormant state is imposed in the text and in conflict with Paul's teaching that those who are in Christ are present with the Lord if they are absent from the body:


    2 Corinthians 5:6-8
    King James Version (KJV)

    6 Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:

    7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight:)

    8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.



    "A dormant state" is the exact opposite of what Paul teaches. You are teaching we are absent from the Lord when we are in the body (alive), and absent from the Lord when we are dead.

    Now unless you want to say that the Lord is still in the grave (which is also contrary to Scripture), then you are going to have to cede this point and strike this proof text from your routine.


    Tell that to Peter and Jude:


    Jude 8-13
    King James Version (KJV)

    8 Likewise also these filthy dreamers defile the flesh, despise dominion, and speak evil of dignities.

    9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.

    10 But these speak evil of those things which they know not: but what they know naturally, as brute beasts, in those things they corrupt themselves.

    11 Woe unto them! for they have gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after the error of Balaam for reward, and perished in the gainsaying of Core.

    12 These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots;

    13 Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.



    2 Peter 2:17
    King James Version (KJV)

    17 These are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest; to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever.



    Tell that to Christ:


    Matthew 25:41
    King James Version (KJV)

    41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:



    Christ does not define Hell as something that ends...


    Mark 9:43-44
    King James Version (KJV)

    43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:

    44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.



    Tell it to John:


    Revelation 14:9-11
    King James Version (KJV)

    9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,

    10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

    11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.



    Kind of hard to see cessation of torment when John quotes the Angel saying the smoke of their torment ascends forever. And you know what they say, my friend...

    ...where there's smoke...there's fire.

    One more, then I have to get going:


    Revelation 20:10
    King James Version (KJV)

    10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.



    Now what's interesting about this statement is that the Beast and false prophet were cast into Hell, the lake of fire and brimstone which the Lord refers to quite often...

    ...a thousand years earlier.

    Now I ask you, do you really think that God places them in hell yet they are the only two humans who suffer the vengeance of Eternal Fire (Jude 1:7)?

    Scripture just does not present that teaching:


    Revelation 20:14-15
    King James Version (KJV)

    14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

    15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.



    Good night and...


    God bless.
     
  19. One Baptism

    One Baptism Active Member

    Joined:
    Apr 5, 2015
    Messages:
    1,597
    Likes Received:
    20
    Thank you for your time. This thread is not suited for study as I previously thought. I would rather not waste your or my time.
     
  20. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2002
    Messages:
    32,913
    Likes Received:
    71
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    1. It comes in a long list of parables and comes as response to complaints about parables
    2. It includes prayers to the dead and has Abraham - not God - as the sovereign of all Heaven
    3. R.C Sproul and others freely admit it is a Parable -- and they do believe in immortal soul false doctrine

    1. Parables use names - for example in judges the parable of the trees uses the names of different kinds of trees/bushes. You are "ad hoc" inventing rules for parables.

    2. In Luke 16 Christ said "the truth taught" by the parable is "if they will not listen to Moses neither will they listen though one rises from the dead".

    3. Even in the parable - no communication with the living is possible apart from bodily resurrection.
     
    #20 BobRyan, Jan 31, 2018
    Last edited: Jan 31, 2018
Loading...