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Featured The Immortal Soul?

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Darrell C, Jan 26, 2018.

  1. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    BobRyan said:
    When a person dies the body is decaying - the body is returning to dust.
    But the person is in a dormant state - their spirit has gone to God and is dormant as 1Thess 4 states. Does not matter if they are good or evil - all are dormant and Paul says in 1 Thess 4 "they have fallen asleep"[/quote]


    1 Thess 4
    13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

    ==================================================



    The burden of "proof" is on the one who wildly proposes "non-dormant sleep".
     
  2. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Did you just shoot your own argument in the foot again??
     
  3. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    Actually the parables end and yield to His teaching concerning the Pharisees' rejection of the Word of God, and is followed by His teaching about the Second Coming.

    Is that too a parable?


    Nonsense. It has the dead speaking to each other. And the rich man is not praying to Abraham in a context of one praying to God. Men can beseech one another, and it is folly to equate that to praying.

    Secondly, and this is just amazing to me...

    ...can you really not understand that Heaven is not in view? lol

    Read the story, Bob...


    Luke 16:22-23
    King James Version (KJV)

    22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;

    23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.



    Perhaps you are thinking it's Heaven because the rich man "lift up his eyes," but its still an imposition to the text.

    No man went to Heaven prior to the Cross:


    Hebrews 9:6-9
    King James Version (KJV)

    6 Now when these things were thus ordained, the priests went always into the first tabernacle, accomplishing the service of God.

    7 But into the second went the high priest alone once every year, not without blood, which he offered for himself, and for the errors of the people:

    8 The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:

    9 Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;



    Men could only gain access to God in figure, parable. They could not enter into God's presence because the way into His Presence was not yet manifest.

    Christ made that possible:


    Hebrews 9:22-24
    King James Version (KJV)

    22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.

    23 It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.

    24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:



    We do not go through the veil of the Tabernacle, or Temple for that matter, we go through the Veil which is Christ:


    Hebrews 10:19-20
    King James Version (KJV)

    19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,

    20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;



    And in view, as usual, is His death. That is what is being referenced when the Writer speaks of His blood and His flesh.

    Just as Communion, a partaking of His blood and flesh...

    ...is a remembrance of His death.


    Continued...
     
  4. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    Love RC to death, and saddened he isn't with us anymore, but, he was wrong about a number of things. His eschatology was horrible, and his loyalty to REformed TEachings was his major downfall.

    As far as who is engaged in false doctrine and teaching, that is evident in the discussions, Bob. You cannot answer most of the points you are given, and refuse to acknowledge simple truths that you cannot argue against.

    Like Christ being the First to rise from the dead.

    And you, like RC, are stuck with that error because your loyalty is for your System of Theology than for the Word of God. You have to make it say what your doctrine teaches.

    At least RC was honest about his denomination. He said he thought about starting a new one but new that if he did it would be no different than any of the other ones.


    lol

    Seriously, Bob?

    You think an answer to "Show me another "parable" that uses proper names" is "There are parables that use names of trees"?


    Actually he quotes Abraham there. Abraham is a proper name of a literal person, by the way.

    And there are numerous truths taught in the parable.

    And again, we see the shift from parable to His rebuke of the Pharisees' rejection of the Word of God.

    Take note, Bob, because anyone who imposes false meanings into Scripture are worthy of that same rebuke.


    Not entirely accurate. We see Samuel speak with the living, as well as Moses and Elijah.

    The primary point being...

    ...heed what the Word of God teaches.

    They had enough in the Law and Prophets to stay out of Hades. The point being, "If they won't listen to what I have already told them, what makes you think one resurrected speaking to them will do any good?"


    God bless.
     
  5. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    1 Thess 4
    13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.[/QUOTE]

    "Sleep" is a common euphemism for death.

    We've already discussed that.

    Are we already at the point where you expect me to keep answering the same arguments? That didn't take long.



    So you view Christ as "wildly proposing non-dormant sleep," eh?


    Luke 16:22-25
    King James Version (KJV)

    22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;

    23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.

    24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.

    25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.



    Let's see some other dead folk not dormant:


    Revelation 6:9-10
    King James Version (KJV)

    9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

    10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?



    Is this too a parable?

    And this...


    Revelation 5:8-10
    King James Version (KJV)

    8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

    9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;

    10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.



    I guess the difference between us is I eagerly embrace the wild propositions of Christ and His Word.


    God bless.
     
  6. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    Did you run out of arguments...again?

    ;)

    The point is "sleep" is a euphemism for death.

    Again...


    John 11:11-14
    King James Version (KJV)

    11 These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.

    12 Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well.

    13 Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.

    14 Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.



    You're having the same trouble these unregenerate disciples were having...they mistook the use of "sleep" for the taking of rest.


    God bless.
     
  7. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    There is no soul sleep as SDA holds with, sleep in NT was a metaphor for a beliver who had physically died!
     
  8. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    1 Thess 4
    13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.


    The burden of "proof" is on the one who wildly proposes "non-dormant sleep".

    More Bible - less creative writing please.

    Physical sleep happens to the body... every night.

    Paul is not talking about that.

    By contrast as Matt 10:28 states "KILL the Body but not the soul" is not "SLEEP the body but not the soul".

    Making stuff up... creative writing etc ... not as helpful as the actual Bible.

    hardly -- I am simply making an irrefutable argument where I get to "state the obvious" as many times as people insist that I do it.
     
  9. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    "Sleep" is a common euphemism for death.
    .[/QUOTE]

    And then you did some creative writing about non-dormant sleep. Which is still nonsense.

    Matt 10:29 "KILL the body but not the soul" leaves the body DEAD and the soul dormant as we see in 1Thess 4 the dormant state of the soul and in Matt 10:28 the "DEAD" state of the body that is KILLED and not "slept".

    Every night your body sleeps.
    But at the end of your life - your body is killed... not "more sleep"

    The constant request that I keep "stating the obvious" is not helping your case.
     
  10. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Prayers to the dead - with Abraham the sovereign of all heaven and all saints in Abraham's lap... a parable as even pro-immortal-soul scholars like R.C. Sproul and others have admitted.

    Just stating the obvious... again.
     
  11. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Hebrews 8:1-9 - the heavenly sanctuary has two main sections just as depicted in the Earthly Sanctuary and describes the two-phase ministry of Christ as High Priest in heaven, Christ began His work as our High priest at His ascension... Hebrews 8:1-2

    Not helping your argument in this discussion.
     
  12. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Apocalyptic symbols not to be taken literally... by definition.

    Again... simply stating the obvious
     
  13. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Matthew 27 a large number raised from the dead at the resurrection of Christ - these are now in heaven.

    Details that do not help your argument.
     
  14. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    And then you did some creative writing about non-dormant sleep. Which is still nonsense.

    Matt 10:29 "KILL the body but not the soul" leaves the body DEAD and the soul dormant as we see in 1Thess 4 the dormant state of the soul and in Matt 10:28 the "DEAD" state of the body that is KILLED and not "slept".

    Every night your body sleeps.
    But at the end of your life - your body is killed... not "more sleep"

    The constant request that I keep "stating the obvious" is not helping your case.[/QUOTE]

    Nothing really new here with perhaps the exception ofpointing out you reject apocalyptic symbols but embrace apocryphal books, Interesting.

    As for the saints raised at Christ's death, we still see the same problem you have, which is that Christ is the First to rise from the dead, which limits those raised at the Crucifixion to being raised physically, not glorified.

    And yes of course they are in Heaven now, seeing that believers now go to be with the Lord when they die.


    God bless.
     
  15. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Nothing really new here with perhaps the exception ofpointing out you reject apocalyptic symbols but embrace apocryphal books, Interesting.

    As for the saints raised at Christ's death, we still see the same problem you have, which is that Christ is the First to rise from the dead, which limits those raised at the Crucifixion to being raised physically, not glorified.

    And yes of course they are in Heaven now, seeing that believers now go to be with the Lord when they die.


    God bless.[/QUOTE]
    Amazing how he will still cling to Ellen White teachings on this area, and yet fail to support what Jesus and Paul both stated was the truth!
     
  16. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Falling asleep ONLY refers to the physical body now dead in the scriptures!
     
  17. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    I find it hard to argue against that statement
     
  18. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    hint - your physical body falls asleep each night... as we all know. This is the easy part.
     
  19. Alcott

    Alcott Well-Known Member
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    Enough of these Sominex for the Christian Soul threads!9
     
  20. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    Nobody is asking you to argue against your own arguments, lol:

    Just asking you to acknowledge some simple truths.

    And I would suggest it was your error (the improperly place quote prompt) that caused the mix-up...

    ;)


    God bless.
     
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