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Featured The Immortal Soul?

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Darrell C, Jan 26, 2018.

  1. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    Now here is the hard part, following Christ's lead...


    John 11:11-14
    King James Version (KJV)


    11 These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.

    12 Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well.

    13 Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.

    14 Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.



    ...in understanding that "Sleep" is a euphemism.


    God bless.
     
  2. Newman

    Newman New Member

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    Understanding of Soul and Spirit.... Hebrews 4.12 says the two can be divided, this leads me to believe they are the same until you are born again, at which time there is division and the spirit in you is now made alive by the Spirit of God.. 1 thes. 5.23, I pray God your whole spirit , soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ... 1 cor. 2.14,15 .. But the Natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God for they are follishness unto him., neither can he know them, because they are Spiritually discerned..
     
  3. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    My spirit is always awake though!
     
  4. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    It does, however, the issue to discuss is whether the "soul" in view refers to an immaterial aspect as many view it to be. I will suggest to you that it does not.

    In view is the separation of the soul (the person as a whole in the physical body, which is comprised of the spirit and the flesh) and the spirit (which is the immaterial aspect of man's make-up), and in view is...death.


    Hebrews 4:12
    King James Version (KJV)

    12 For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.



    The "joints and marrow" points to the concept, I believe, of basically the body as "joined" and "that which is within."

    As a further point to support a view that physical death is in view, I would point out that this is basically a concluding statement that follows about a chapter and a half of the example of the Children of Israel...dying in the Wilderness.

    And they died because they rejected the Word and will of God.


    The New Birth is the spiritual resurrection of the dead spirit of man, not a dividing asunder.

    Men have no life associated with their spirit until Regeneration takes place.

    We are "added to," lol, not taken away from in the New Birth. And nothing is ever said about "the soul" in relation to New Birth.


    That is about the only verse in all of Scripture one can look to to try to prove a trichotomy of man.

    And one has to overlook an entire Bible filled with verses that we can see the context is clearly speaking of the entire person as a whole when they are called souls. Here are a few examples which are at the higher end of the list, which cannot be debated as to meaning:


    Genesis 12:5
    King James Version (KJV)

    5 And Abram took Sarai his wife, and Lot his brother's son, and all their substance that they had gathered, and the souls that they had gotten in Haran; and they went forth to go into the land of Canaan; and into the land of Canaan they came.


    Genesis 46:15
    King James Version (KJV)

    15 These be the sons of Leah, which she bare unto Jacob in Padanaram, with his daughter Dinah: all the souls of his sons and his daughters were thirty and three.




    Genesis 46:25-27
    King James Version (KJV)

    25 These are the sons of Bilhah, which Laban gave unto Rachel his daughter, and she bare these unto Jacob: all the souls were seven.

    26 All the souls that came with Jacob into Egypt, which came out of his loins, besides Jacob's sons' wives, all the souls were threescore and six;

    27 And the sons of Joseph, which were born him in Egypt, were two souls: all the souls of the house of Jacob, which came into Egypt, were threescore and ten.



    Exodus 12:4
    King James Version (KJV)

    4 And if the household be too little for the lamb, let him and his neighbour next unto his house take it according to the number of the souls; every man according to his eating shall make your count for the lamb.




    Acts 2:41
    King James Version (KJV)

    41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.



    Acts 7:14
    King James Version (KJV)

    14 Then sent Joseph, and called his father Jacob to him, and all his kindred, threescore and fifteen souls.




    Acts 14:21-22
    King James Version (KJV)

    21 And when they had preached the gospel to that city, and had taught many, they returned again to Lystra, and to Iconium, and Antioch,

    22 Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.



    And one more:


    Acts 27:37
    King James Version (KJV)

    37 And we were in all in the ship two hundred threescore and sixteen souls.



    I will just make the point that when God created man He formed his body, and breathed life into him, and man became a living soul (person). He was not given a soul, but was made a soul (living person).

    Should we not take that into consideration when we seek to understand the Word of God as a whole? And the difference we will see if we do understand this is that we will not indulge in imposing into a context an eternal perspective, particularly in the Old Testament, where the context as a whole deals with man in the physical plane.

    Hence, when a "soul goes into the grave," or pit, or goes to "sleep" with his father, in view is physical death, not commentary on what became of the immaterial aspect of man.



    This passage is primarily a context of the Revelation of the Mystery of the Gospel of Christ. Paul makes the point that the Gospel is the Hidden Wisdom of God in a Mystery, not the wisdom of even the rulers of the earth. The rulers were ignorant of it, because it was hidden wisdom, and that this wsdom is revealed to men by the Spirit of God. Just as Christ speaks of the Comforter bringing conviction upon unbelievers, even so here, the natural man (the unregenerate) cannot perceive the spiritual things of God, so it must be revealed to him by the Spirit. That is the only way God has ever revealed spiritual things.

    But he also makes the point no man was privy to it, twice very clearly.

    Here...

    1 Corinthians 2
    King James Version (KJV)


    1 And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God.

    2 For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.

    3 And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling.

    4 And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:

    5 That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.

    6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:

    7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:



    The Gospel is the power of God unto salvation.

    He also clarifies this is the Hidden (unrevealed) Wisdom of God with a quote:


    9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.



    And he shows how this Hidden Wisdom is revealed:



    10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.



    There is really nothing relevant to trying to determine if the "soul" is a reference to the person as a whole, or whether it is a reference to another immaterial aspect of man's make-up. And I will say that it is still proper to call the spirit a "soul," because it is the spirit of man that is the person. We see "souls" in Heaven, which is why some people think that when a person dies their "soul" goes to Heaven. Properly it is when a person dies, "That soul" goes to Heaven.

    And even today when a shipwreck occurs, the people on board are referred to as souls, just as Luke refers to those on a ship.

    Anyway, I know not many are going to take the time to look at this issue, but, if you simply word-search "soul" and "souls" on Biblegateway, it makes for an interesting study. See if the texts do not make more sense understanding them, as the above references make clear, as a reference simply to the person.


    God bless.
     
  5. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    until you "fall asleep in Jesus" 1 Thess 4

    Which is not your body sleeping each night - as it turns out.
     
  6. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    1 Thess 4
    13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.


    John 11:11-14
    King James Version (KJV)

    11 These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.
    12 Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well.
    13 Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.

    14 Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.


    Not that hard as it turns out.
     
  7. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    So you are telling me - that my post is constructed in such a way - that when you quote it -- it looks like you are making my statements and taking my position.

    You can see why I would have a hard time objecting to your posts in that case...
     
  8. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    Not from what I am seeing.

    Paul did it...so can you, Bob.


    God bless.
     
  9. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    It was an error in the quote, Bob, noting more. And it looks like you are the one that made the original error, and that got through in my own post.

    And that is not why you have a hard objecting, you have a hard time because your doctrine is in conflict with the Word of God.

    That is why, isn't it...that you keep posting the same arguments addressed numerous times?

    ;)


    God bless.
     
  10. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    You can follow this link to see where the quoting code was improper, in case you're interested.

    And that's it for me today, Bob. Have a good night and see you next time around.

    And Bob...try to get some sleep. You're sounding a little cranky.


    God bless.
     
  11. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    more bible... less emotionalism
     
  12. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    1 Thess 4
    13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.


    Matt 10:29 "KILL the body but not the soul" leaves the body DEAD and the soul dormant as we see in 1Thess 4 the dormant state of the soul and in Matt 10:28 the "DEAD" state of the body that is KILLED and not "slept".

    Every night your body sleeps.
    But at the end of your life - your body is killed... not "more sleep"


    Agreed.. it is all irrefutable "still" ...nothing new here

    Christ and Elisha had both raised a great many people to life before Christ was raised.
     
  13. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    Yawn...

    Yawn...

    Yawn...

    Really, Bob, how about going back and addressing the responses to these points. Its been done several times, so you can choose which one you want to address.

    On this last, I will again (yawn) point out that these were physical resurrections. All who were raised from the dead before Christ was glorified would have all died again physically.

    Christ is the First to rise from the dead, which denies Moses and Elijah being glorified on the mount of transfiguration:


    Acts 26:22-23
    King James Version (KJV)

    22 Having therefore obtained help of God, I continue unto this day, witnessing both to small and great, saying none other things than those which the prophets and Moses did say should come:

    23 That Christ should suffer, and that he should be the first that should rise from the dead, and should shew light unto the people, and to the Gentiles.



    What was it Ronald Reagan said, "It isn't that our SDA friends are ignorant, it's just that they know so much that isn't so."

    Maybe it wasn't Reagan that said that...

    ;)


    God bless.
     
  14. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    1 Thess 4
    13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.


    Matt 10:29 "KILL the body but not the soul" leaves the body DEAD and the soul dormant as we see in 1Thess 4 the dormant state of the soul and in Matt 10:28 the "DEAD" state of the body that is KILLED and not "slept".


    Says it all
     
  15. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Not true in the case of Moses who is "still alive" in Matthew 17 along with Elijah -- standing with Christ in glory. before the cross.
    Not true in the case of the Matthew 27 list.

    All of which has already been pointed out to you.... yawn.. :)

    Matthew 27
    51 And behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth shook and the rocks were split. 52 The tombs were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; 53 and coming out of the tombs after His resurrection they entered the holy city and appeared to many.
     
  16. Newman

    Newman New Member

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    1 Thess 4
    13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

    ==================================================





    The burden of "proof" is on the one who wildly proposes "non-dormant sleep".[/QUOTE]
    Bob Ryan , what do you do with Rev. 6. 9-10 if you believe the soul is dormant..
     
  17. Newman

    Newman New Member

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    Bob Ryan, it is evident in Rev. 6.9-10 that the souls in heaven are not dormant, they are speaking...
     
  18. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    Rev 6 -- all the souls of the saints are crammed in under the altar -- and crying out for vengence. Sounds like apocalyptic symbolism to me... Just like the blood of Able crying out from the ground -- looks to me like a good bit of symbolism

    I agree completely. In that bit of apocalyptic symbolism those souls - all huddled down under the altar in heaven are speaking... so also is Abel's blood "speaking" from the ground etc. But I don't make up doctrine about blood having its own mind and mouth and speaking underground ... nor do I argue against the John 11 and 1Thess 4 statements about the dormant state of the saints during death and until the resurrection.

    As pointed out here

     
    #58 BobRyan, Feb 7, 2018
    Last edited: Feb 7, 2018
  19. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    Yaawwnnnn....

    ;)


    God bless.
     
  20. BobRyan

    BobRyan Well-Known Member

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    1 Thess 4
    13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.


    John 11:11-14
    King James Version (KJV)

    11 These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.
    12 Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well.
    13 Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.

    14 Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.




    Says it all
     
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