The Israel of God

So you take this to mean that Abraham saw Christ crucified, placed faith in Him, and was regenerated?

Check the context, my friend, where in view is the fact that the Jews reviling Christ denied that they needed the Messiah.

If you do not see by that how Abraham's expectation of Christ is in view, then perhaps consider...


1 Peter 1:10-12

King James Version (KJV)

10 Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:

11 Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow.

12 Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.


That, not to mention the fact that Scripture is clear both implicitly and explicitly that the Gospel of Christ was a Mystery, not yet revealed, the hidden wisdom of God.

You create a conflict in Scripture in making the application you do in ascribing Abraham with knowledge that he was not privy to. That conflicts with Peter's clear statement, as well as Paul's teaching, as well as that evidenced by the actions of the disciples of Christ themselves.

Now you may disagree with me, but Christ makes it clear that the disciples, who thought they believed...didn't:


John 16:29-32

King James Version (KJV)

29 His disciples said unto him, Lo, now speakest thou plainly, and speakest no proverb.

30 Now are we sure that thou knowest all things, and needest not that any man should ask thee: by this we believe that thou camest forth from God.

31 Jesus answered them, Do ye now believe?

32 Behold, the hour cometh, yea, is now come, that ye shall be scattered, every man to his own, and shall leave me alone: and yet I am not alone, because the Father is with me.


The disciples were prophesied to abandon Christ. Not one of them believed on Christ. Not one of them followed Christ. Not in the context of the born again Spirit indwelt New Covenant believer. They were not Baptized with the Holy Spirit which is the eternal indwelling which produces regeneration:


Titus 3:4-5

King James Version (KJV)

4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,

5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;


This is how we are saved, my friend, and this was only promise in Adam, Abraham, David, and John the Baptists Day.


Continued...

 

Sorry, no. The only condition relevant is their condition of being natural men in need of the Atoning Sacrifice of Christ. When they died the last offering for sin was a physical and vicarious offering that God allowed through faith. It did not take away sins as Christ's did.

When they died they did not go to Heaven, because before the Most Holy Place, that is, Heaven, could be opened for men, Christ had to make Atonement. I have already posted Scripture on this but here it is again:


Hebrews 9:8-9

King James Version (KJV)

8 The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:

9 Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;


Christ opened that way for men through His death:


12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.


Christ brought about eternal redemption (contrasted with the physical redemption found under Old Covenant provision):


15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

And again we see Heaven opened to mankind who has been made perfect (complete in regards to remission of sins, redemption of transgressions)only through the Blood (death) of Christ:


Hebrews 10:19-20

King James Version (KJV)

19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,

20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;



See the perfecting of the Old Testament Saint:


Hebrews 11:39-40

King James Version (KJV)

39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:

40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.


Hebrews 12:18-24

King James Version (KJV)

18 For ye are not come unto the mount that might be touched, and that burned with fire, nor unto blackness, and darkness, and tempest,

19 And the sound of a trumpet, and the voice of words; which voice they that heard intreated that the word should not be spoken to them any more:

20 (For they could not endure that which was commanded, And if so much as a beast touch the mountain, it shall be stoned, or thrust through with a dart:

21 And so terrible was the sight, that Moses said, I exceedingly fear and quake:)

22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.



And finally, notice, as is his wont, the Writer's continual contrast between the Two Covenants. Throughout the Book he does this. If the L.O.S.T. would just understand this one point they would not use Hebrews 6:1-6 and Hebrews 10:26 as their favorite proof-texts for loss of salvation.


Continued...

 

I agree, but it is His ministry that is made distinct between the Covenants prior to the New Covenant, which has a focus not just on the fact that the Spirit would be in them as opposed to with them, but also distinguishes the revelation of the Mystery of the Gospel.

And that is the primary focus of the Comforter's Ministry.

He reveals to men the truth. No man understands apart from this ministry. It was true of the disciples of Christ before they were Baptized with the Holy Spirit, it was true for you and I before we were baptized with the Holy Spirit, and it will be true for anyone that comes to saving faith before and after they are Baptized with the Holy Spirit.

Sorry, no, they were not looking forward to the Cross consciously as it is demanded of those who would receive eternal redemption and life.

It was not revealed to them, my friend. No amount of quoting will change that simple truth.

Abraham did not rejoice that Christ would die for his sins.

Not even John the Baptist did, and he was used of God to prophecy the event:


John 1:29

King James Version (KJV)

29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.


Matthew 11:2-3

King James Version (KJV)

2 Now when John had heard in the prison the works of Christ, he sent two of his disciples,

3 And said unto him, Art thou he that should come, or do we look for another?



If we misunderstand this we will misunderstand a number of other things as well. The magnitude of salvation in Christ is diminished when this is missed.


Continued...

 

And what does Scripture say?


Galatians 3:20-22

King James Version (KJV)

20 Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one.

21 Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.

22 But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.


Understanding promise given and promise bestowed helps us to better understand salvation in Christ.

Paul also makes it clear...


2 Corinthians 3:5-6

King James Version (KJV)

5 Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think any thing as of ourselves; but our sufficiency is of God;

6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.


...as does Peter, as does the Writer of Hebrews, and ultimately as does the Holy Spirit Himself...

...there is a distinct difference of ministry between the Covenants.

No, it is my view only.

Where I might be found in agreement with Jesuits is irrelevant even as where I would be found in agreement with Catholics is (i.e., the Trinity).

And before writing myself and the doctrine/s of Jesuits off, address the doctrine itself. Mine, not Jesuits.

Seeing ye see not...

Just kidding.

Whatever it takes, my friend. You will either address the doctrine or hit the ignore button, lol. There is only so much I can do myself. If you refuse to address this doctrinally and reiterate the same things then I may decide discussion is fruitless at this time, in which case, as I have done for years here, I may again enter into discussion with you at some later time.

I have clarified several times the core issue here, and that you do not receive answers to your question as you like is not something I can readily control. I can't give a yes/no answer to issues which have to be examined in light of an overview of Scripture.

You impose faith in the Risen Christ, the Church, and regeneration into Old Testament Economies. I object tot hat teaching and do what I can to express why.

Take it or leave it, it is what it is.

And your baseline question takes us into left field, lol. Actually...the bleachers. Maybe even the parking lot....

I have. IN the posts today I quote earlier posts and the answers given. You can't demand a yes/no answer to a complicated issue such as we are dealing with. That is the premise of my first response to you.

From my perspective the answer was pretty simple, but I can understand why people kick at some of the goads that arise.

That's okay. This discussion may have to wait for another day, perhaps.

I'll do what I can though I already feel I have overstayed my time here in this trip. What I feel I need to do is find another forum and meet new people, and enter into new discussion. That is why I do not stay in one place because the danger of repeating the same things can, I feel, hinder growth.

I'll do what I can. I have broken up several points addressed to make it easier to focus on a singular point. Hope that helps.

That's the point: everything you believe is examined.

Sometimes when we take the time to actually understand the basis of our antagonist's belief we find out they aren't the idiots we thought they were, lol. And sometimes we might even learn something, and that is one of life's greatest blessings...to learn truths which we understand to come from the Lord Himself.

Not me. I just have antagonists. lol

Me and you, my friend. Me and you.

I can understand how you might feel that way.

Not right now, anyway.

Maybe. Depends on how long I am here. Either way, you have the thread to review, and you can reread and pat yourself on the back again...

;)

And a fine fellow you are for doing so. It's good not to give up n people too easily.


God bless.

 

By the way, OB, something I meant to suggest in reference to the link for Jesuits and then forgot, lol, I would highly recommend not supplying links like that. The reason is that people generally gravitate towards those of like belief and you could inadvertently make converts to the groups you provide links to.

That was it.

Done.


God bless.

 

There are some very good reformed scholars who have held that the OT believers were somehow regenerated by God due to them trusting and holding to the coming Messiah, and that God did some how not hold their sins against them due to the Cross to come, but did not have the Spirit indwell them as he does now!

heaven was not opened until Veil was torn, and jesus had to first raise and ascend back to heaven, and the Holy spirit started the work in full of the new Covenant at pentacost!

 

Wow. I'm done speaking with you for now until I see repentance. I have warned you twice:

A man that is an heretick after the first and second admonition reject; - Titus 3:10​

 

There are, John MacArthur being one of them. Not sure about RC Sproul. But again we see, when we do that, what was only promised in the Old Testament being imposed before the promise/s were fulfilled.

I would have to see a statement on this one, because I think most generally acknowledge that sin was not forgiven in completion apart from the Cross. But it wouldn't surprise me. It is a typical Baptist teaching (among the various fellowships) that they were "saved on credit."

The truth is that Christ redeemed the transgressions of the Old Testament Saint through His death, which is the reason Heaven was then opened unto men. The Old Testament Saint benefitted, just as we before our salvation, from the grace of God. The penalty was not exacted upon them, but just as we were under condemnation, even they too remained under condemnation until their sins were Atoned for.

Yes, most agree on that, but I feel they just don't think it through. Kind of like being saved on credit. There is an equation between the two when the New Testament clearly teaches the New Covenant brings completion in a manner that was not available, though foretold and illustrated, through the prior Covenants.

The promise to Abraham that all the families of the earth would be blessed through his seed, which we now know referred to his Seed (singular), still remains. But in the vein of what I have attempted to discuss with the OP, we also see that it is still true that redemption came through his seed (plural) as well. We have two lineages to attest to that truth.

Agreed.

And that veil was His flesh:


Hebrews 10:19-20

King James Version (KJV)

19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,

20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;


The imagery of the Tabernacle was of man entering into God's presence through that veil. It was exclusive and required a mediator (the High Priest). Christ's flesh fulfills that imagery because until Christ went through that veil (took upon Himself the flesh of man) the prior parable of the Law remained.

So we don't just see this as speaking about Christ's death, but the Incarnation itself. Picture the Son of God stepping "through" that veil, the body He took upon Himself, and remember that the "going through begins from Heaven, not at the Cross.

It is this very thing I see the Lord crying out to the Father in the Garden for, a "Let's get this done" issue, rather than "Father...please, I don't want to go to the Cross, is there another way? Nevertheless, Thy will, not Mine."

Christ made it clear it was for this very reason He came. It was known to Him before the first drop of water met the earth's core.

But consider the true "humility of Christ," which was, after all taking on that flesh. Not being beaten, not having His beard ripped from His face, but taking on human flesh.

That is true, a truth not given the consideration it should, in my view. The disciples were not yet Baptized with the Holy Spirit, which coincides with the promises of God in both the Old Testament and the New. Christ said when He came He would be in them, not with them, and that...forever. Which shows the distinction between the Holy Spirit's ministry prior to Pentecost.

Unfortunately some teach that the Baptism with the Holy Spirit is a subsequent event to being saved. Not possible. If a man has not the Spirit of God and Christ, he doesn't belong to God. It is very true that empowerment results from the Baptism with the Holy Spirit, but we do not have a dichotomy among believers, those Baptized with the Holy Spirit, and those poor folk who are just saved, lol.

Sorry, didn't mean to ramble on. Leaving in a bit and won't likely be able to post for a while, unless on my tablet or phone, which is frustrating.

Hope everyone has a blessed weekend and a great Lord's Day.


God bless.

 

Sorry, didn't know it was God I was speaking with.

A Jesuit Dispensational Heretic. I can see why you might think me dangerous. I am dangerous to your teaching, my friend. If you would address the points you would see that.

I cannot repent of what I see Scripture presenting in very clear terms. Your warnings are duly noted, and you can pat yourself on the back that my blood will not be on your hands.


God bless.

 

I am a reformed Dispy, who was raised and taught in AOG, what would he think of me?

 

Reformed Dispy...is that even possible? lol

Better keep her head down. lol

I guess I'm a covenaptist.

And it doesn't matter what others think of us if we can show agreement with God's Word.

God bless.

 

Guess would be just me and Dr Macarthur then!

 

Guess there's three of us.

And that should have read "Better keep yer head down," lol.


God bless.

 

The Israel of God is the total number of redeemed throughout time! That is consistent with the Southern Baptist Faith and Message adopted by the Southern Baptist Convention in Atlanta, Georgia on June 14, 2000, which states:

 

This statement is similar to the Generation Dispute... It looks forward to those it applies to. Now if you can find them saying the church in the wilderness was the Body of Christ, please share that.

I can agree with this as it is stated as Christ taught there would be One Fold. But not until the Eternal State do we see this completely fulfilled.


God bless.

 

The actual view held would be that all of the saved by God among each generation of Jews after Acts would be part of the true Isreal of God!

 

Not. Where do you get this stuff? The one fold is NOW, not somewhere off in the far distant future. There is NO DISTINCTION, NOW, not later.

14 For he is our peace, who made both one, and brake down the middle wall of partition,
15 having abolished in the flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; that he might create in himself of the two one new man, so making peace; Eph 2

And the Spirit bade me go with them, making no distinction...Acts 11:12

and he made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith. Acts 15:9

even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ unto all them that believe; for there is no distinction; Ro 3:22

For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek: for the same Lord is Lord of all, and is rich unto all that call upon him: Ro 9:12

For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek: for the same Lord is Lord of all, and is rich unto all that call upon him: Ro 10:12

where there cannot be Greek and Jew, circumcision and uncircumcision, barbarian, Scythian, bondman, freeman; but Christ is all, and in all. Col 3:11

There can be neither Jew nor Greek, there can be neither bond nor free, there can be no male and female; for ye all are one man in Christ Jesus. Gal 3:28

For in one Spirit were we all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether bond or free; and were all made to drink of one Spirit. 1 Cor 12:13

15 For neither is circumcision anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.
16 And as many as shall walk by this rule, peace be upon them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God. Gal 6

 

He gets it from dispensational error, invented by John Nelson Darby! Never mind what Scripture tells us in Ephesians 2!

http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=94639

 

You do realise that Jesus and paul kept national/spiritual isreal seperate from the Church, correct?

 

National Israel: YES! After they conspired with Rome to crucify Jesus Christ their task in GOD"s purpose of Salvation for HIS Elect was complete. National or ethnic Israel occupies the same position before GOD as all other national or ethnic groups do. The Elect will be saved the rest left in their fallen state.

Spiritual Israel: NO NOT CORRECT!

y1 haven't you ever read the passage from Ephesians 2? Apparently not! You dispensationalists will ignore any Scripture that proves your Darbyism wrong and twist all the rest to prove your Darbyism correct. Darbyism, classic-pre-trib-dispensationalism, modified-pre-trib-dispensationalism, or any other doctrine that calls the Church a "parenthesis" in GOD's program for national Israel is a blasphemous doctrine.

http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=94639