The real reason I am KJVO

[Keith M]

Do you doubt what I said? They are found in the Gospel of John in modern versions.

...and in the various KJVs as well. Check it out, Askjo, since you doubt truth.

 

[Keith M]

You did not find the evidence in the Gospel of John in modern versions. Look at John 5:31 and 8:14.

Then check the same verses in the KJVs and you'll find exactly the same "contradiction."

 

[Keith M]

Read them again and figure out.

The only thing to figure out, Askjo, is that you're extremely confused.

:laugh: :thumbs: :smilewinkgrin:

 

[Askjo]

Then check the same verses in the KJVs and you'll find exactly the same "contradiction."

Please show me TWO words on these passages in the KJV.

 

[Keith M]

You did not get the point.

Read CAREFULLY:

Jesus' testimony is true and NOT true.

Therefore these modern versions show that Christ contradicted Himself on these passages.

As has been pointed out already, Askjo, the same supposed contradiction is found in the KJVs. Go check your "facts" again. You're absolutely destroying any credibility you may have had.

 

[Keith M]

Ahhh - gotcha. You're hung up on the choice of words between the modern versions and the KJV. OK, well, maybe going to the Greek will help as well as the useage of the word by the KJV translators:

The word translated as "testimony" or "witness" is "martyria" which means:

1) a testifying

a) the office committed to the prophets of testifying concerning future events

2) what one testifies, testimony, i.e. before a judge

Interestingly enough, the KJV translators translate this word 15 times as "witness", 14 times as "testimony", 7 times as "record" and 1 time as "report".

So using "witness" or "testimony" is the same thing according to the translators. It was their choice to use both words to translate the ONE Greek word.

Yep - not a great argument against the MVs.

That won't help a bit. Askjo is confused, saying that Jesus' testimony is said to be both true and not true. Of course this false accusation was made without checking to see if the same "contradiction" is found in the KJVs - and it is! What Askjo refuses to recognize is that Jesus was responding to two different situations at two different times. He didn't contradict Himself at all, but Askjo just can't see that truth.

 

[Askjo]

As has been pointed out already, Askjo, the same supposed contradiction is found in the KJVs. Go check your "facts" again. You're absolutely destroying any credibility you may have had.

You WRONGLY picked my post. It refers to modern versions, NOT the KJV. You did not read my previous post:

Please show me TWO words on these passages in the KJV.

 

[Askjo]

That won't help a bit. Askjo is confused, saying that Jesus' testimony is said to be both true and not true. Of course this false accusation was made without checking to see if the same "contradiction" is found in the KJVs - and it is! What Askjo refuses to recognize is that Jesus was responding to two different situations at two different times. He didn't contradict Himself at all, but Askjo just can't see that truth.

I am not confused. Most defenders of modern versions are confused and blind.

 

[annsni]

John 5:31

KJV - If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true.

NASB - If I alone testify about Myself, My testimony is not true.

NIV - If I testify about myself, my testimony is not valid.

ESV - If I testify about myself, my testimony is not valid.




John 8:14

KJV - Jesus answered and said unto them, Though I bear record of myself, yet my record is true: for I know whence I came, and whither I go; but ye cannot tell whence I come, and whither I go.

NASB - Jesus answered and said to them, "(A)Even if I testify about Myself, My testimony is true, for I know (B)where I came from and where I am going; but (C)you do not know where I come from or where I am going.

NIV - 14Jesus answered, "Even if I testify on my own behalf, my testimony is valid, for I know where I came from and where I am going. But you have no idea where I come from or where I am going.

ESV - Jesus answered, "Even if I do bear witness about myself,(A) my testimony is true, for I know(B) where I came from and(C) where I am going, but(D) you do not know where I come from or where I am going.

Askjo is pointing out that the KJV uses two different terms - "bear witness/witness" and "bear record/record" whereas the other versions all use the same terms in the two passages - thus creating a "contradiction". He's saying that Christ's "witness" is not true but His "record" is - and that is not a contradiction where as the other versions use the same term in both verses thus...the problem.

However then he has the same issue with the original Greek since it uses the same term in both passages. It is not a valid argument if GOD HIMSELF made sure that it was the same word in the language it was written by His breath.

 

[Keith M]

Jesus' testimony is true AND not true. Did you see THAT?

Askjo, are you really that confused or are you just being obstinate even though you know you're wrong? Jesus responded to two different situations at two different times. He DIDN'T contradict Himself as you errantly insist. But if He had contradicted Himself, that same contradiction is found in the KJVs as well as in modern Bible translations. Askjo, I believe you're being deliberately argumentative and obstinate. You're trying to make an absolute untruth miraculously turn into truth. Well, no matter how you try to make it happen, this false accusation will never suddenly turn into truth. IMHO, you either seek to be obstinate or else you have a severe comprehension problem.

 

[Askjo]

Originally Posted by Askjo
Jesus' testimony is true AND not true. Did you see THAT?

Askjo, are you really that confused or are you just being obstinate even though you know you're wrong? Jesus responded to two different situations at two different times. He DIDN'T contradict Himself as you errantly insist. But if He had contradicted Himself, that same contradiction is found in the KJVs as well as in modern Bible translations. Askjo, I believe you're being deliberately argumentative and obstinate. You're trying to make an absolute untruth miraculously turn into truth. Well, no matter how you try to make it happen, this false accusation will never suddenly turn into truth. IMHO, you either seek to be obstinate or else you have a severe comprehension problem.

My post above refers to WHAT modern versions said. See????

 

[Askjo]

Askjo is pointing out that the KJV uses two different terms - "bear witness/witness" and "bear record/record" whereas the other versions all use the same terms in the two passages - thus creating a "contradiction". He's saying that Christ's "witness" is not true but His "record" is - and that is not a contradiction where as the other versions use the same term in both verses thus...the problem.

However then he has the same issue with the original Greek since it uses the same term in both passages. It is not a valid argument if GOD HIMSELF made sure that it was the same word in the language it was written by His breath.

You see red above. The KJV shows that Christ did not contradict Himself.

KJV - If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true.
KJV - Though I bear record of myself, yet my record is true

Perfect! No contradiction with the doctrine of Jesus Christ!!!

Modern versions show that Christ contradicted Himself on these passages. Therefore they affected the doctrine of Jesus Christ.

 

[annsni]

You see red above. The KJV shows that Christ did not contradict Himself.

KJV - If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true.
KJV - Though I bear record of myself, yet my record is true

Perfect! No contradiction with the doctrine of Jesus Christ!!!

Modern versions show that Christ contradicted Himself on these passages. Therefore they affected the doctrine of Jesus Christ.

So you are saying that the Greek - the very words that God breathed out - contradict themselves? So the KJV is superior to what God had actually written in the originals? That is not what I'm understanding. It is the same word in both passages in the Greek. The modern versions are more consistent with the manuscripts than the KJV is.

 

[ray Marshall]

I checked the shortest verse in the Bible"JESUS wept" with the same verse in the Jehovah Witness and it said, "JESUS gave away with tears." Looks like that verse could be mistaken by the Jehovah Witness, by more than how the KJV worded it. I'm referring to the meaning that the Jehovah Witness discribes it. Looks like the "JESUS wept made complete sense to me.

Oops, I quoited the Jw. It saiy that, "JESUS gave away to tears." sorry

 

[Askjo]

So you are saying that the Greek - the very words that God breathed out - contradict themselves?

Did I say that? It is your false question.

So the KJV is superior to what God had actually written in the originals?

Did I say that? It is your false question.

It is the same word in both passages in the Greek.

The KJV translators were wise to select a right word during they translated from Greek to English.

The modern versions are more consistent with the manuscripts than the KJV is

Wrong! It is your false comment.

 

[ray Marshall]

Beats me......But, count on it, I just KNOW that still learning (or someone else in his part of the KJVO-SWAT TEAM here on BB) has got a very logical, well-reasoned and heavily-reasearched answer as to exactly where these poor souls have been spending their first part--consisting by this time of at least nearly 500 years!--of eternity. :thumbs:

Maybe they've been left off the hook...Kinda like they died before reaching some sort of "Age of Accountability" which God somehow had decreed to have been established as being in effect on that very day in AD 1611 that the AV (With apocrytha, and in that Gothic print font and with those scary dragons occupying the marginal spots [thus making it questionable that the tender little English boys and girls of that day would desire to read and memorize its contents] on its pages) rolled off the "By-Royal-Appointment" London presses.

Yah think?

Well, I believe everyone that CHRIST died for before the KJV1600 will be with him without execption. He died for his people way, way, way, back.

 

[rbell]

You MISSED the point! Read these passages carefully and S L O W L Y.

It doesn't matter how slowly they read it; you will never be satisfied, because they are reading in context, and you are not.

 

[franklinmonroe]

John 8:17&18 (KJV) --

It is also written in your law, that the testimony of two men is true.
I am one that bear witness of myself, and the Father that sent me beareth witness of me.​

Jesus said that He bore "witness of myself" in the KJV. He does not need to explicitly state here that His witness "is true". So, unless you think He was actually lying here, this supplies the same 'contradiction' with 5:31. Would it help you understand if I drew you a picture?

 

[annsni]

What I find very interesting is that I'm looking at John 5:31 on this site:

http://scripturetext.com/john/5-31.htm

and it's showing that the Wescott and Hort and the TR are identical on this verse. So there's no textual issues here that can be blamed on corrupted texts.


Looking at the John 8:14 passage, there is a small change in there - don't know what it means. Can anyone read Greek and tell me what that last character that looks like a lower case n is? What does that change between the TR and the W&H?

http://scripturetext.com/john/8-14.htm

 

[preachinjesus]

This is like talking to a four year old...that wall is there you can't run into...no the wall isn't there...that wall is there you can't run into...no the wall isn't there, watch...boom...see the wall is there...no the wall isn't there...