So why does God have to harden a heart that is already hard?
The Reprobate Calvinist
Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by vooks, Sep 2, 2015.
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Seriously? You do not understand regeneration, born-again, Christ in you, one with Christ as Christ is one with the Father? Really? You do have a bible, correct?
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The beauty of how the Holy Spirit ultimately speaks through even his children who have embraced false theology. "When they were ready, they "got it" ..........and were then saved". Let that sink in a bit....love it!
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robustheologian Well-Known MemberSite SupporterObviously it is you who does not understand regeneration...especially given your response of poor rhetoric instead of Scripture. You have no Scriptural basis for regeneration meaning Christ in you or one with Christ. I'll wait for at least one verse that supports that (you won't find it but I'm sure you'll respond with something else that has nothing to do with Scripture).
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I first must apologize for being facetious with you. I thought everyone on this board with maybe the exception of Trevor knew that regeneration is Christ's Spirit/Holy Spirit quickening the believer's spirit, birthing a new creature, joining two as one with Christ.
I will have to just choose a few passages since to list them all would take up several pages.
"That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. (John 3)
"Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;" (Titus 3:5)
"For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones. For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh. This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church." (Eph 5)
"What? know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is one body? for two, saith he, shall be one flesh. But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit." (1 Cor 6:16-17)
"But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you." (Ro8:9-11)
"Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new." (2Co5:17)
Thus should suffice, although a huge portion of the NT is devoted to "Christ in you" and the "New Creature" created through being born of the Spirit of God/Spirit of Christ.
This is why we say OSAS. Christ in you is not Christ along side of you as if you could ever seperate yourself again. As the scriptures declare, it is a new spiritual birth. It cannot be denied, ".....he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit." (1 Cor 6:16-17)
Hope this helps! Blessings! -
robustheologian Well-Known MemberSite SupporterWhere is there a verse that equates regeneration to having Christ in you? As I said they are connected BUT they are not the same thing. Justification is connected to faith but they are not the same thing. So where is one verse that doesn't just connect regeneration to union with Christ but makes them out to be the same thing?
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I gave you a detailed exposition. Not sure why you cannot connect the dots. Do we need to go verses by verse and answer questions?
"That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. (John 3)
"Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;" (Titus 3:5)
This connects regeneration with the Holy Spirit rebirth, correct? -
robustheologian Well-Known MemberSite SupporterThat's what I've been saying—that regeneration is rebirth by the Holy Spirit. However, you were equating regeneration to the Holy Spirit living in you which it is not. They are connected but being reborn by the Spirit and having the Spirit live in you are two separate things.
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Well you certainly have a one of a kind theology there brother. Once one is born of the Holy Spirit the Holy Spirit is living in you, joined together as one spirit (1Cor6). The Spirit come upon OT saints, however, regeneration is NT and began only after the glorification of Jesus Christ (John 7) at which time the Holy Spirit indwelled the believer as one forever, Christ in you!
I'm curious, have you actually found commentaries which divide this as you do? I never read anything as of yet. And I don't think any other Calvinist here would agree with you on this. But I would like to read something from others on this. -
robustheologian Well-Known MemberSite SupporterIt is true that once one (in the NT age) is born of the Spirit, the Holy Spirit lives in them. Like I said, they are not the same thing though. For example, once one has faith they are justified but justification and faith are not the same thing. So this filling of the Spirit is NT. But regeneration is OT and NT seeing that there is no way there would have been OT "saints" without it.
As far as who espouses this, anyone who holds to the ordo salutis. You can check out Louis Berkhof's "Systematic Theology" or The Early Writings of John H. Gerstner. For a shorter read check out R.C. Sproul's "Chosen By God" or his other book "What Is Reformed Theology?".
You seem to fall into the trap of generalizing Calvinists. You said you don't think any other Calvinists here would agree with me on this but most good Calvinists would....and there are plenty of brilliant ones here on BB...you have to be willing to pay attention. -
Well according to the NT they are indeed one in the same thing and I presented lots of scripture evidence and there is plenty more. What you will not find is any reference to regeneration in the OT. Thus, your argument is from silence and really not defendable imo. Calvinism simply must have it OT or else the whole TULIP falls apart.
Now are you saying those Calvinist who do not agree with you on this are "bad" Calvinist? lol -
robustheologian Well-Known MemberSite SupporterNo, you claim to have presented scripture to supported regeneration and the indwelling to mean the same thing. 1) You have NOT presented scripture evidence to support that...all you did was claim that you did (like me claiming to have found the lost city of Atlantis) 2) It is not presented in Scripture 3) Either you didn't grasp the fact that something can be connected to something and not the same thing (as in the case of faith and justification) or you must believe that faith and justification is the same thing...or that a head and a neck is the same thing since they are connected.
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Well Anyone can see that I did. You haven't refuted any of it, you just keep saying "no it does not". That is not debating what has been presented. And where is your scripture showing being born of God/Regeneration is not having the Spirit of God indwelling you? And where is your scripture showing regeneration happening in the OT?
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Ok, I certainly learn something new on a regular basis here on the BB. I must admit I never knew any born-again Christian who took this position that being born of God is not having the Holy Spirit indwelling, Cal or non-Cal. Robust claims most good Calvinist believe this way. Is this true? I know dozens of Calvinist are reading this thread. Can any of you confirm Robust's view on this as the way most good Calvinist believe it to be? And if so, maybe you could chime in and debate from the scriptures why you see this as so.
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robustheologian Well-Known MemberSite SupporterThat's like you saying purgatory exists and I can't find Scripture to refute it. The refutation is the fact that it is not in Scripture. And no one can see how you've backed up regeneration and Spirit indwelling being the same thing.
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robustheologian Well-Known MemberSite SupporterBeing born of God leads to the Spirit indwelling. Regeneration is a work of the Spirit. Just as faith leads to justification, and faith is connected to repentance, it is incorrect to say the faith and justification is the same thing...it is incorrect to say that faith and repentance is the same thing. Do you understand how something can be related and not the same thing??? It seems like you're understanding.
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No he doesn't. He has the position of historic Christian orthodoxy.
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Could you provide some historic Christian orthodoxy that declares born-again is not the indwelling of the Holy Spirit?
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The New Birth
It is absolutely necessary for a person to be born again in order to enter the kingdom of God. In the central passage in the New Testament about the new birth ( John 3 ), Jesus tells Nicodemus, a member of the Jewish ruling council, that he will not enter the kingdom of God unless he is born anew. The alternation between singular and plural Greek pronouns in the passage shows that Jesus is speaking to Nicodemus both personally and representatively. The need for the new birth is not only true of Nicodemus, but of the entire Sanhedrin, all Jews, and, by extension, all people.
Some have considered the new birth to be a process a person experiences, even over a period of years. Such an interpretation is not congruent with the tense of the Greek verb in this passage. The aorist tense suggests that the new birth is an event rather than a process. Prior to a certain point in time, a person is not-born-again or regenerated; after that point, the person is.
Probably the most difficult interpretative issue in John 3 is found in verse 5. The best view appears to be that "being born of water and the Spirit" presents a unified thought for the supernatural cleansing from sin that God through the Spirit effects on all who believe on his Son. This water-Spirit combination is a reflection of Ezekiel 11, 36, and Jeremiah 31. In these Old Testament passages God's Spirit is viewed as doing a revolutionary work in the lives of God's people in the new covenant age. There are a number of reasons that this interpretation is preferable.
The use of one Greek preposition (ek) before the two nouns indicates a close relationship between them. Water and Spirit are complementary rather than antithetical to each other. It does not see water as a reference to Christian baptism at a time in Jesus' ministry when such baptism was not yet a historical reality. It fits well contextually in terms of Nicodemus' familiarity with the Old Testament and the need for some intelligibility on his part. It interprets "born of water and the Spirit" as equivalent to "born of God, " a common Johannine term ( John 1:13 ; 1 John 2:29 ; 3:7-10 ; 4:7 ; 5:4 ). It comports well with the emphasis on Spirit and truth in the Johannine literature. Finally, it coheres with the use of water in the Old Testament to symbolize renewal and cleansing.
Whether Old Testament believers possessed the new birth is a difficult question. No Old Testament text explicitly states that Old Testament believers were born again or regenerated. There is a relative absence of a developed theology of the Spirit in the Old Testament. But, given the universality of the need for the new birth, it can be argued that Jesus' teaching on the absolute necessity of the new birth for entrance into the kingdom of God analogically demands that Old Testament believers also had to have the divine life imparted to them through God's Spirit.
Many commentators argue that tit 3:5 argues for water baptism as the referent of the word "washing." Based on the Greek grammar, however, the translation should be rendered "the washing [produced by] regeneration and the renewal [produced by] the Holy Spirit." This interpretation also coheres with the translation of John 3.
First Peter 1:23 adds a more explicit dimension to the means whereby the new birth is produced: the preached message of the truth of Jesus Christ. The key words in 1 Peter 1:22-25 expand upon and reinforce words referring to the new birth.
The new birth is, then, a sovereign act of God by his Spirit in which the believer is cleansed from sin and given spiritual birth into God's household. It renews the believer's intellect, sensibility, and will to enable that person to enter the kingdom of God and to do good works. The Old Testament saints were born again when they responded in faith to God's revealed message; New Testament saints, when they respond in faith to Jesus Christ.
Carl B. Hoch, Jr.
Bibliography. L. L. Belleville, Trinity 1 (1980): 125-41; F. Bchsel, TDNT, 1:665-75, 686-89; S. Charnock, The Works of Stephen Charnock, vol. 3; J. Dey, Encyclopedia of Biblical Theology, pp. 725-30; N. R. Gulley, ABD, 5:659-60; Z. C. Hodges, BSac 135 (1978): 206-20; A. Kretzer, Exegetical Dictionary of the New Testament, 1:243-44; W. L. Kynes, Dictionary of Jesus and the Gospels, pp. 574-76; J. I. Packer, EDT, pp. 924-26; A. Ringwald, NIDNTT, 1:176-80; P. Toon, Born Again: A Biblical and Theological Study of Regeneration.
Baker's Evangelical Dictionary of Biblical Theology. Edited by Walter A. Elwell
Copyright © 1996 by Walter A. Elwell. Published by Baker Books, a division of
Baker Book House Company, Grand Rapids, Michigan USA. -
Well this certainly is intriguing. Have I been missing something all of these 20 years of study and debate for this is the first time I ever had another Christian say being born-again is not the Spirit indwelling. Maybe I will do a poll and see how widespread this goes.
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