Glad you like the duds! I bought them in Hong Kong and save them for kung fu conflict with hoity toity types.
Yes, I have tried to reconcile these issues. In keeping with the OP, hoping the Calvinist types do not consider this off topic, I began my studies of the issues 35 years ago in college with a Cal. roommate and two Cal. profs. My Presbyterian roommate could not answer my questions, but was a life saver during an extremely difficult time in my life. If it were not for him chances are I would not be in the ministry.
Also in college I met my best friend to this day (other than my wife), who must be a 5-pointer, given his love for the Puritans, John Gill, etc. I have never discussed the issue with him and will not. It is not worth destroying a precious friendship over. This man supports our ministry monetarily, recently sent evangelistic letters to every home in his home town, and just today we got about 3000 Japanese tracts he paid for and arranged to have sent over.
In the years intervening I have read over and over again and meditated on and consulted commentaries on every passage in question, read through systematic theologies (Strong, Finney, Hodge, Warfield, some of Gill, etc.) on each side, as well as other books on each side and a little bit of Calvin himself. I remain unconvinced that predestination and free will can be reconciled by human thinking.
I have done a grad school paper on the subject (on Rom. 10 and the necessity of the predestination of every action of believers for the possibility of unconditional election to exist), read articles in theological journals on it, occasionally reading the BB threads on the matter (finding little that is relevant to my thinking), and still agree with what Dr. Monroe "Monk" Parker (a brilliant Fundamentalist evangelist and scholar) told me back in the '70's: "I am willing to let God have some secrets." :type:
The route to Calvinism
Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by dwmoeller1, Mar 9, 2007.
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John of Japan Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
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I don't know what I am!
I have read many of the Old Baptists of every stripe.
I find myself vacilating somewhere between an:
Eternally Secure (OSAS) Lordship Arminian
to
Sublapsarian, "Faith-Simeltanious - Regeneration" 4 Point Amyraldnist.
I would enjoy input regarding this balancing act!
:jesus: is what matters! :laugh: -
pinoybaptist Active MemberSite Supporter
re: john's post.
like i said: theology is earthbound, that is, it belongs to man, not God. it is the feeble attempt of a finite mind to interpret the mind of an infinite God.
I adhere to the Doctrine of Grace, and how I view the Doctrine is different from that of Calvinists.
Nevertheless, Calvinist, Arminian, opposition, fence sitter, whatever one's position is the final word belongs to God.
If you are His, then you are His, and there's no two ways about it.
One can have all the angels of heaven rooting for him, if one is not God's own, all the angels in heaven can do nothing about it.
Whether you love the Doctrine of Grace, or hate it, or are indifferent to it, has nothing at all to do with your eternal standing with God.
The blood, the blood, nothing but the blood of Jesus. -
John of Japan Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
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Thanks. -
Whatever you say...
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John of Japan Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
Think about this. Did you think about election before you got saved and at the time you got saved? Do you know anyone who did? I certainly didn't and I don't teach the doctrine to the unsaved or to new believers. :type: -
JOJ , as believers we should sometimes dwell on our election and calling . JD was right in that we do not have to wait until inside the gate . And you are right in that most of us did not think of election before or at the time of our conversion . It's not one of the primary things I would bring up with the unsaved . But , since it is so prominent in the Bible maybe that has to change . Speaking of election with an unsaved one may not be such a bad idea after all . We don't avoid speaking of Hell just because it doesn't go down so well with nonbelievers do we ? Election is actually a comforting doctrine . God is in control , He appointed the means necessary to accomplish our redemption .
Monroe Parker's remark was really a takeoff on Deut. 29:29 . I agree , of course , that the secret things belong to the Lord . However , the doctrine of election is a revealed doctrine . The Scripture doesn't explain the teaching in a comprehensive way , but enough truth that a person would be perverting Scripture in either ignoring or altering it . I think 2 Peter 3:16 was probably referring to election ( as well as some other truths ) as " things hard to understand " that Peter was mentioning about Paul's writings . -
AC 20:26 Therefore, I declare to you today that I am innocent of the blood of all men. 27 For I have not hesitated to proclaim to you the whole will of God.
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John of Japan Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
As you have perhaps rightly noted, this may have been what Peter was thinking about in 2 Peter 3:16. If Peter had a hard time with it, imagine what a hard time the average lost person would do with it. There is no way in the world I would discuss election with an unsaved person or with a new Christian unless they were a very exceptional person.
But this is getting away from the OP, so I'll give it a rest--and take a rest myself since it is getting late here in Japan. -
I don't know that Peter had a difficult time with some of the doctrines that Paul developed in his epistles . ( BTW , Paul's Gospel was also Peter's . )Unfortunately even among believers of some decades in the faith -- the doctrine of election is not a comfort to them . The doctrine is usually ignored or distorted . Many make it seem to be a call to service -- just a temporization -- nothing to do with eternity . A. Nettleton in the "awakenings " associated with his ministry preached on the doctrine(s) of grace , including the teaching of biblical election with great POWER . ( I didn't intend to embolden "power" , but I'll leave it that way .) . He said it ( in a manner of words ) concentrated the mind most forcibly . It is a sobering truth . Perhaps newbies need this more than you think . John P. was saying that Paul preached the whole counsel of the Word of God -- we should not neglect the doctrine of election . We are not wiser than God . Are we afraid that that teaching will scare someone away from being saved ? All Scripture is useful to teach us what is true . The doctrine of election is no exception . People can be saved under preaching that would be counter-intuitive to many these days . Spurgeon sermonized on Total Inability . I doubt that message put a hindrance in the way of their salvation . Pink spoke on Thankfulness and at least one in the congregation came to a saving union with the Lord .
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And to me, there is grace in all of this.
skypair -
Well, that's fair if it's true. I don't know who Paul had in mind but I felt impressed that things hadn't changed much from then to now within the body of Christ. I would only ask, "Who do YOU perceive to be moving toward reconciliation in these debates? Who do you see as admitting with you that faith is 'given' by God and that sovereignty might be more total than perhaps other free willers think? Who is it here examining sin nature and soul and spirit in an effort to try to bring a more complete knowledge of salvation than either side has offered since day one?"
Am I preaching the God of love to you? Or are you preaching the God of intransigent and divisive love to me?
skypair -
rippon,
I know -- God's not "responsible" for the bad things you do, right? Even assuming that were right (say, according to "permissive will"), it let's you off the hook for lots you might should be doing but that God hasn't "stuck your nose into" yet. Or things you do as a Christian that you don't see God chastising you for, eh?
skypair -
Great! So how do we find out which?? Only by repenting and receiving the gospel of Christ!
skypair -
Just when you were giving the impression on some earlier posts that you have become lovey-dovey -- you spoil it all again SP .
Yes, election is a comforting doctrine . It's not a false comfort . But it's nothing new for you to twist things again in a most disgraceful manner . Why have you taken apparent offense at my words that election is a comforting doctrine ? I have placed my faith and trust in the finished work of Christ . I recline on the pillow of Christ's love expressed in my eternal election . It is not a doctrine in which I can freely revel in sin . Or , as C.H.S. said : " The Doctrines Of Grace Do not Lead To Sin " .
I like these verses on the general subject to start off with : Romans 8:28 : And we know that God causes everything to work together for the good of those who love God and are called according to his purpose for them .
Ephesians 1:4 : Even before he made the world , God loved us and chose us in Christ to be holy and without fault in his eyes .
2 Thessalonians 2:13c : ... a salvation that came through the Spirit who makes you holy and through your belief in the truth . -
That is my problem with all talk of "election" to salvation -- how could one KNOW that one is "elect" except by the means of free and sincere personal choice? Everything else (proofs) in 1John can be pretty much faked. The Pharisees did a marvelous job of doing just that!
skypair
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