Sheesh... give me time. I have a life away from here. Just went to visit my mom who may be facing a mastectomy, or worse.
The SBC and Calvinism
Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Michael Wrenn, Feb 22, 2012.
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Let me play devil's advocate for a moment until you return so we can work this out better.
No less than J. I. Packer holds to the theoretical possibility of heathen salvation apart from the hearing of the Gospel but he notes, "but what we cannot safely say is that God ever does save anyone this way."
John Stott, a highly respected reformed theologian and minister, said:
The position I am taking for sake of discussion is that God can reveal enough of himself to the unevangelized and regenerate them and have them repent and worship him like Seth and Enos and two thousand years of people did before the flood and these people be saved.
This is not universalism and it does not deny the exclusivity of Christ nor does it question that Gospel proclamation is God's overwhelmingly normative means of saving the lost. -
Thank you; that is excellent. -
I would care more about replying to Amy and mandym if they weren't so mockingly accusatory and ridiculing in their responses to me.
I'm going to keep this short because now I'm defending scriptural truth and historical accuracy against a fanatical Romanist on another thread.
Basically, the Quaker view of the Inward Light of Christ and John Wesley's view of this light and what he called prevenient grace -- both of these positions based on John 1:9 and in harmony with the teachings of Romans 2 -- hold that those who never heard the Gospel will be judged on the basis of the use they make of the light they have.
The PB's hold that God in His sovereignty chose a certain number out of the human race to elect to salvation and that some who never heard the Gospel are included in this number.
The "Catholic" position, of which there are variations between the RCC and EOC, has been stated in this forum. I won't go into that here. -
God will elect out for Himself his people, regardless of placing faith in Christ on this earth primitive baptists
God will elect to save those whom He has foreeknowledge that they would have received jesus IF they had chance here on earth to have heard Some Arminians
variation of that is that God has elected to save those who had no chance to hear Gospel, same way saves infants who cannot place faith reqired to get saved
God will honor sincere faith of those in other religions who never heard the gospel, or a "perverted" version of it Roman catholic -
Okay folks, here is the answer to the question under debate. It is found in Romans 2:14-15.
First, in 2:12 Paul says as many of those who sinned without the law will perish without the law. In other words, they will perish, but not due to the condemnation of the written law.
Second, Paul says those who have never heard the gospel have "the law written on their hearts." He calls it the conscience.
Paul also says the Gentiles (or heathen) are a "law unto themselves."
In other words, they have their own moral code of right and wrong.
They will be judged against their own moral code, and because of their sinful nature, they cannot live up to it. Thus they will have to acknowledge that the condemnation against them is just.
They cannot be condemned for rejecting Jesus of whom they have never heard.
If God will cut them some slack for the lack of knowledge of Jesus, then for heaven's sake, let's bring all our missionaries home, lest somebody hear the gospel and reject it. -
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Many missionaries DO go to places that reject them and as a result those people are more damned than had they never heard. But we don't advocate not sending missionaries to such places and people. Why? Because God SAID go. We go in love for him and desirous to obey and please him and tell the world about him- it matters not if the whole WORLD reject it.
Of course we expect and hope that many will receive it and they do- but ourr primary motive for preaching the Gospel is FAR nobler than the salvation of sinners- it is the glory of God.
The verses you supply just establish that these people are gulity before God. I do not dispute that at all.
What I am arguing for is the possibility that God can save the heathen who've never read or heard a single shred of Scripture- this is not God's normative way of saving but it cannot be said that God cannot save through Christ without special revelation.
There simply is no Bible that says otherwise.
No- not even Romans 10. -
If we carry out to a logical end the issues with those not hearing being better off and assured of heaven, then the best missionary tactic is to simply off people before they have a chance to hear -- sooner the better -- best to get them while they are still infants and innocent... :BangHead:
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I enjoy the debate/discussion here; hope I can keep it up. Going back and forth with all you "Doctrines of Grace" folks (is that better? :) ) has me tired out, and now a Roman Catholic is after me! :)
I owe so much to my mom that I could never describe it all. She is one of the best people God ever created! She's been sick most of her life and has suffered greatly. I had hoped that her last years and days would be peaceful and mostly suffering-free. I still pray for that, and I hope and pray that God will see it best to grant her a few more years with us.
Again, thanks to you and everyone for your prayers. -
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http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?p=1724760&highlight=desolate#post1724760 -
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Except that Paul wrote in I Cor 1:22 that it pleased God to save through the foolishness of preaching. I'm not talking about infants, toddlers, the mentally ill or retarded here. I believe they are safe. But we still have to deal with clear, unmistakable, not-subject-to-any-other-interpretation scripture like this one.
Regarding my comment that we ought to bring our missionaries home if God saves independently of the gospel, I understand and agree with your response. We preach, send missionaries, etc. because Jesus told us to do so. My comment was aimed at the very argument you make--the possibility that some are saved independently of the gospel or knowledge of Jesus Christ. -
And trust the Judge of whole earth to what is right, and to realise that God has reserved to himself"hidden things/mystery" chosen NOT to reveal to us yet! -
And not assume that people die without hearing the gospel or that God will save them after the fact not having been convicted of the gospel. -
Go firth into entire world, proclaiming salvation/forgivesness of sins in his name!
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