Well, to be fair, most people have little to no idea about what they believe in the FW vs. DoG debate. Not everyone participates on Internet message boards or reads up on the topics of the day. Many, and I mean many, people who have visited our church have no idea what the whole debate is about. Some hold to the FW position because it's what they've been taught, but they've never taken a critical look at the it. The same can be said of those raised in a DoG church and family.
The Sharp Divide: How to deal with it
Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Herald, Dec 1, 2012.
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2) Is a congregational church not lead by elders concerning the day to day operation of the church. The actual idea is that the Elder board reports to the congregation, and the Pastor is a member of the Elder board. So church polity is made pretty clear in the bible, and those who disagree are again on a power trip.
3) The premise that the Bible does not present a view we can all agree on is questionable, but you cannot alter the view of some whose mind is made up, and thus simply an prideful partisan. The problem with divisive people within the body goes deeper than doctrine, and demonstrates an inability to consider others more important than themselves. We could have this same discussion over contemporary music, or KJV over NASB, or all the other hot button issues constantly recycled but never resolved on this board. -
Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
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Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
Delete! Delete!
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Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
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Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
For a DoG person, you'd have to change your entire prospective from a theocentric perspective to a anthropocentric one. Thats quite a leap. -
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Iconoclast Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
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Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known MemberSite Supportersaturneptune said: ↑Iconoclast said: ↑As far as traveling and finding a church, not to join, I can picture attending a conservative Presbyterian before some stripes of Baptist.Click to expand...
No not me...never again will I set foot in a Calvinist church of that ilk.:mad:Click to expand... -
Iconoclast Well-Known MemberSite SupporterHerald said: ↑Well, to be fair, most people have little to no idea about what they believe in the FW vs. DoG debate. Not everyone participates on Internet message boards or reads up on the topics of the day. Many, and I mean many, people who have visited our church have no idea what the whole debate is about. Some hold to the FW position because it's what they've been taught, but they've never taken a critical look at the it. The same can be said of those raised in a DoG church and family.Click to expand...
In some churches doctrine is on the back burner.Are people obeying the new testament commands for living the christian life as far as advance and growth of the Kingdom. To obey all the "one another" commands would dictate that these issues be discussed.
In churches where the people are naive concerning these issues....many times a group within the church starts to see how these truths are central to what we believe. They begin to grow...some nice and steady....some cage stage types.....
As the demographic swings over those disgruntled persons who do not want anything to change speak of a "church takeover".
Then comes the caricatures, emotional protests and griping.
The cage stagers counterattack....the others become talebearers. -
HeirofSalvation Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
Herald.......This thread, I think, will, by default, prove the notion that there should be peaceable dis-association.
Committed Calvinists WILL NOT agree with the likes of myself, and others who believe in LFW.
Similarly, those who are committed to LFW...simply WILL NOT agree with those who teach otherwise....
That is NOT WRONG!!!! I am glad this particular discussion is brought up.
I would not attend a "Reformed" Church....and similarly, I would NOT support a missionary whom I knew to be "Reformed" in their Theology. I also would simply not begrudge YOU, if you also admitted as much.
This has become the question of our era............
And in our era......I hope for the best of Calvinist brethren, and also believe I cannot, in good conscience, support their teaching.
I also would not expect them to support MINE.
If I were a missionary, I would NOT expect yours or Old Regulars, or Icon's Church to give me support......
But, I would similarly not offer my support to them...........
There does not have to be an assumption of ill-will to our fellow-Christians, as I know my Calvinist brethren ideed are.........but merely a belief that it is most appropriate for separation of effort....We should part ways peaceably....
I hope the SBC will address this, and allow it to occur......
These two "camps" in which you and I find ourselves, are not going to "play nice".......we WON'T agree, and I would not respect you, if you compromised for the sake of "Unity"........nor would I think you would respect me if I compromised merely for the sake of "Unity"....
We ARE "Unified"......in the noble ideal of preaching to the lost the need for repentance and the confession of Jesus Christ as Saviour and Lord for Salvation. In THAT respect, we are brethren, and we shall find out that we were ALL missing the point entirely when God explains our own stupidity to us in Glory....
But, for now, we accept, and appreciate, and hope the best for one another for the furtherance of the kingdom.
I would like to think that Calvinists weren't flourishing under the tutelage of Arminian Churches......but, IMO, they are.
I don't think "Reformed" Churches are propogating themselves.........I think "Reformed" people are "taking-over" Arminian work..........
I also think that "Reformed" folks are tired of hearing that.....
Therefore.....my proposition:
Dis-associate peaceably.........and cede to the "Reformed" crowd....every SBC Seminary along with all of their deeds and titles.....and wealth and what-not. You guys can have ALL of it, for all I care. And simply let them propogate themselves from now on.
Please, then, split the SBC........and let the Arminian faction NEVER accept a confessionally confirmed Calvist again.........and in 30 years........Calvinism will be a dying minority, and Arminianism will have propogated itself..........and Calvinists will AGAIN attempt to ressurect themselves upon the back of Arminian Churches and Seminaries, and the nasty and vicious cycle will continue.
Do your OWN "dirty work"..........and leave Arminian institutions ALONE....That is my hope. -
I doubt if it's possible to ever bridge the divide between Calvinists and non-Calvinists. Neither side is going over to the other, just for the sake of unity.
Notice, I used the term non-Calvinist, instead of Arminian. I don't know any Southern Baptists who could be classified as Arminian.
So the question is not how to bridge the divide, but how to co-exist with each other. We have been able to do it in the congregation saturneptune and I serve.
One way is to concentrate on our shared beliefs instead of our differences.
For instance:
We all believe in a sovereign God.
We all believe in salvation by grace through repentance toward God and faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.
We all believe that the Holy Spirit must operate in the process.
We all believe that the Holy Spirit illuminates darkened minds and hearts; convicts of sin; draws men and women through the preaching of the gospel.
We all believe that Christ died for sinners.
We all believe that works do not save.
We all believe that Christ is able to keep those who are committed to him--and will lose none of them.
This does not mean we ignore differences in the process. It means we acknowledge those differences, but do not make them a test of fellowship.
In most SBC churches, DoGs will be in the minority, as it is in my church. My pastor is not a Calvinist. I will never publicly or privately seek to undermine his preaching and teaching. The church called him to be pastor, not me.
I will answer truthfully about my soteriology if I'm asked, but there will be no crusade to convert others to my way of thinking. I will not divide the church over this issue. And if you've ever been through a church fight, you won't either--unless it's about heresy. -
HeirofSalvation said: ↑Therefore.....my proposition:
Dis-associate peaceably.........and cede to the "Reformed" crowd....every SBC Seminary along with all of their deeds and titles.....and wealth and what-not. You guys can have ALL of it, for all I care. And simply let them propogate themselves from now on.
Please, then, split the SBC........and let the Arminian faction NEVER accept a confessionally confirmed Calvist again.........and in 30 years........Calvinism will be a dying minority, and Arminianism will have propogated itself..........and Calvinists will AGAIN attempt to ressurect themselves upon the back of Arminian Churches and Seminaries, and the nasty and vicious cycle will continue.
Do your OWN "dirty work"..........and leave Arminian institutions ALONE....That is my hope.Click to expand...
As far as the DoG being a "dying minority"; that is not the historical record. Apart from the hubris of saying it goes back to the Apostle Paul, it has existed as a theological system since Augustine of Hippo. It has gone from minority to majority many times; but it has never been a "dying" majority. -
Tom Butler said: ↑I doubt if it's possible to ever bridge the divide between Calvinists and non-Calvinists. Neither side is going over to the other, just for the sake of unity.
Notice, I used the term non-Calvinist, instead of Arminian. I don't know any Southern Baptists who could be classified as Arminian.
So the question is not how to bridge the divide, but how to co-exist with each other. We have been able to do it in the congregation saturneptune and I serve.
One way is to concentrate on our shared beliefs instead of our differences.
For instance:
We all believe in a sovereign God.
We all believe in salvation by grace through repentance toward God and faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.
We all believe that the Holy Spirit must operate in the process.
We all believe that the Holy Spirit illuminates darkened minds and hearts; convicts of sin; draws men and women through the preaching of the gospel.
We all believe that Christ died for sinners.
We all believe that works do not save.
We all believe that Christ is able to keep those who are committed to him--and will lose none of them.
This does not mean we ignore differences in the process. It means we acknowledge those differences, but do not make them a test of fellowship.
In most SBC churches, DoGs will be in the minority, as it is in my church. My pastor is not a Calvinist. I will never publicly or privately seek to undermine his preaching and teaching. The church called him to be pastor, not me.
I will answer truthfully about my soteriology if I'm asked, but there will be no crusade to convert others to my way of thinking. I will not divide the church over this issue. And if you've ever been through a church fight, you won't either--unless it's about heresy.Click to expand... -
HeirofSalvation Well-Known MemberSite SupporterHerald said: ↑I'm not making suggestions as to how FW'ers and DoG'ers should go about separating.Click to expand...
If not, Why not????
That's for each church to decide. My church is not in the SBC, nor does it want to be.Click to expand...
We ARE "HERETICS"........So, start your own churches, please, and leave us alone......
But the fact is that the SBC has substantial investments in property and institutions of higher learning.Click to expand...
If we could guarantee that the Calvinist sorts would GO AWAY.........and leave us alone.....than, I would be willing to legally cede every square inch of property.....and every penny of support......
YOU MAY HAVE THE INSTITUTIONS, SIR.......I don't WANT 'em...........
Nor do I want another Arminian penny supporting Calvinist "Theologians" poisoning the minds of decent Arminian Pastors hearing your Deterministic drivel......
Take the Institutions.....Take their money, Take their Real Estate.....Take them for all they're worth......and then GO AWAY.....and leave Arminian Churches and Institutions ALONE........
For that reason alone I doubt that denomination will force one or the other out.Click to expand...
You want the support Arminians always offer in Christ-like "Unity".......but, you seek to also undermine them with Theological teaching by taking advantage of their good-will.................
IF I were the un-questioned dictator of the SBC......and I said to you:
"Take EVERY Institution.....take every penny of value, take all the real estate....and NEVER.......infiltrate an Arminian Church AGAIN......You would turn it down.
That makes me worse than sick.......
It is Arminianism which keeps Calvinism alive today...
Individual SBC churches will have to make their own decision as to their continued association.
As far as the DoG being a "dying minority"; that is not the historical record. Apart from the hubris of saying it goes back to the Apostle Paul, it has existed as a theological system since Augustine of Hippo. It has gone from minority to majority many times; but it has never been a "dying" majority.Click to expand...
Start your own CHURCHES...........and then let them decide.Click to expand... -
HeirofSalvation said: ↑FINE.........But, I did, in MY post......and my suggestion was.....I am perfectly willing to cede EVERYTHING to you guys, if you will leave our Churches and Institutions ALONE....and not attempt to infiltrate them...Is That FAIR?
If not, Why not????
T
But, it was created by obvious Arminians......hence my desire, for the Calvinists to GO AWAY, and start their own churches, and leave us "heretics" alone..................
We ARE "HERETICS"........So, start your own churches, please, and leave us alone......
And my suggestion is, and I already stated it was, very simple........
If we could guarantee that the Calvinist sorts would GO AWAY.........and leave us alone.....than, I would be willing to legally cede every square inch of property.....and every penny of support......
YOU MAY HAVE THE INSTITUTIONS, SIR.......I don't WANT 'em...........
Nor do I want another Arminian penny supporting Calvinist "Theologians" poisoning the minds of decent Arminian Pastors hearing your Deterministic drivel......
Take the Institutions.....Take their money, Take their Real Estate.....Take them for all they're worth......and then GO AWAY.....and leave Arminian Churches and Institutions ALONE........
It has been the habit of Calvinists, to force Arminians out.......It has NEVER been the habit of Arminians to force Calvinists out..............and Therein, they have erred. It is time for Arminians to "force" Calvinists out.....but, you don't REALLY WANT to leave do you????
You want the support Arminians always offer in Christ-like "Unity".......but, you seek to also undermine them with Theological teaching by taking advantage of their good-will.................
IF I were the un-questioned dictator of the SBC......and I said to you:
"Take EVERY Institution.....take every penny of value, take all the real estate....and NEVER.......infiltrate an Arminian Church AGAIN......You would turn it down.
That makes me worse than sick.......
It is Arminianism which keeps Calvinism alive today...
Individual SBC churches will have to make their own decision as to their continued association.
No......It has been Arminians who have kept the foundation alive for too long which has allowed Calvinism to continue to exist.......Calvinists are parasites...Your OWN CHURCH is a PARASITE borne upon the backs of Arminians, as you have freely admitted..........
Start your own CHURCHES...........and then let them decide.Click to expand... -
Herald said: ↑Eventually we found ourselves in a situation where the DoG'ers came out of the woodworkClick to expand...
http://www.phrases.org.uk/bulletin_board/26/messages/197.html -
Herald said: ↑Tom, what is the dominant theological position taught from you pulpit when it comes to DoG or non-DoG?Click to expand...
We have had two DoG pastors in the past. I don't recall that they ever dealt with it from the pulpit either. But their views were no secret.
Co-existence can work if both sides want it to work. Every DoG in my church is involved in the life of the church. saturneptune is a deacon and Sunday School Director. He is quite faithful in outreach and evangelism. Another DoG is one of our best Sunday School teachers. and is faithfully involved in ourtreach. He also chairs our Finance Committee. I am chairman of the deacons and choir director.
I remember when I first embraced DoG forty years ago. I thought it was so great that I wanted to talk about it with anybody who would listen. I actually made a nuisance of myself. I soon learned that non-DoGs will not receive it well from a zealot. They must come to it on their own after much study. The Spirit of truth guides into truth.
I am happy to share my view with anyone who wants to hear it. But I do not crusade for it, and I will not divide my church over it.
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