The Sovereignty of God

It is only through the conviction of the Holy Spirit that man can come to God.You can present the Gospel to someone all day and all night but without God initiating true conviction no man can begin to reconcile himself to God.

To create all men as blank templates with equal ability to 'choose' saving faith in Christ, and at the same time hide the Gospel from many of them (American Indians before America was discovered for example) would make God a tyrant.

Fortunately someone who understands the infinite goodness of God understands the significance of just one single transgression.God would still be perfectly just and perfectly good had He chosen to condemn every single person who ever walked the earth to eternal damnation.It is a testament to His amazing grace that He should choose to save any of us at all.

[ July 19, 2002, 09:06 PM: Message edited by: Odemus ]

 

Can you show logically or Biblically that this is true, or are we just supposed to take your word for it. If God is, as we say, outside the realm of time, then Paul was capable of any alternative, saying 'yes,' 'no,' 'maybe,' and so on.

Foreknowledge doesn't mean that predestination of God.[/QB]</font>[/QUOTE]Nice of you to keep dodging the question.You tell me how Paul could have 'chosen' against salvation and I'll explain exactly how foreknowledge and predestination can't be separated.

 

Can you show logically or Biblically that this is true, or are we just supposed to take your word for it. If God is, as we say, outside the realm of time, then Paul was capable of any alternative, saying 'yes,' 'no,' 'maybe,' and so on.

Foreknowledge doesn't mean that predestination of God.</font>[/QUOTE]Nice of you to keep dodging the question.You tell me how Paul could have 'chosen' against salvation and I'll explain exactly how foreknowledge and predestination can't be separated.[/QB]</font>[/QUOTE]The same way that people all over the world choose against salvation. They say "no." We have to remember that Paul had more than likely heard the gospel several times - he probably heard Stephen's testimony. He said no then and could have said no again. It is because God knew that he would say yes that He chose Paul to do mighty works and enabled him to do so. Such is foreknowledge. Because it was Paul's free choice, it was not predestined by God to happen.

 

Christ was the light who gives light to all men (John 1.) All men have a chance - apparently, even those who haven't expressly heard the gospel...or haven't you heard the stories about missionaries who go to countries in Africa, only to find out that somehow there are those who believe in a man who died on an X things. Romans 1 states that no man is without excuse - nature shows the glory of God enough.

See above. The fact that you'd rather God pass over people, sending them to Hell, than have all men have a free chance to choose says a lot about who you are.

God would be perfectly just to kill us all. However, it should be even a greater testament that He chose "whosoever," and that he desires that "all men should come to a saving knowledge of Him."

 

What sane person would believe the gospel as being true and then reject it?

Stevie

[ July 20, 2002, 10:09 AM: Message edited by: absturzen ]

 

Two can play that game.

The fact that you would rather believe God leaves salvation entirely dependant on the 'choice' of man while knowingly allowing whole civilizations to exist without any chance of hearing the Gospel says a lot about who you are and the kind of God you worship.

By the way, you still didn't answer my question.I'll generalize it:If God knows everything that will ever happen, how can one excersise free will to choose an alternative to what God already knows will happen?

 

That's why free will salvation advocates can so easily end up falling into Open Theism. Open Theism is consistent with their belief on free will. To be consistent theologically, all free will salvation advocates should openly embrace Open Theism.

Ken

 

That's why free will salvation advocates can so easily end up falling into Open Theism. Open Theism is consistent with their belief on free will. To be consistent theologically, all free will salvation advocates should openly embrace Open Theism.</font>[/QUOTE]So if God reveals to you that 5-point Calvinism is a false teaching, will be become and open theist?

I'm asking because I'm truly interested to know if you are open to learning something new about God.

If you are, you *may* find yourself becoming an open theist.

If not, then you will remain as you are.

If you respond with hostility or claiming that the Bible teaches no such thing, you *may* be closed to hearing another point of view -- which might be the voice of the Spirit of God.

I don't know you and you don't know me, but the written "tone" of your posts come across as so sure of your position that you try to push everyone who does not agree with you regarding free-will/sovereignty into one lump of people who either don't know or believe their Bible. It is exceptionally unbecoming. Again, I don't know you and I'm not trying to judge your motives or spiritual character, but that's the impression I'm getting. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Having said that, I do think you made an interesting point here. A strong belief in free will working within the context of God's sovereignty does fit very nicely with some Open Theism models. My own personal theology that I developed over the last 23 years has many similarities with Open Theism, a concept I've only heard about recently. I am in the process of working through the implications of what is being taught by some Open Theism teachers to see if "mainstream" Open Theism correctly portrays my Biblical understanding. I always find it very interesting when I come to conclusions that may not be popular from my own personal Bible study and find them promoted a few years later when someone writes a popular book. The first time that happened was when John McArthur(sp?) came out with "The Gospel According to Jesus". It has happened many times since.

 

1) I will let the facts that I was a rip snorting Pelagian for most of my life and am now a Calvinist, that I was a New Covenantalist and am now a Covenantalist, and that I was an amillennialist and am now a postmillennialist answer the first point.

2) Sorry about that.

3) Well, aren't you agreeing with what I said about free will advocates easily going into Open Theism.

Ken
The Happy Calvinist

 

Did you skip over what I wrote about the salvation of such civilizations? You're misrepresenting the Arminian position, I think - at least my own.

Because God works outside of time and in time at the same time. God knows the end results of man's free choice - Time is linear in man's perspective and reality. In God's reality, he knows the results of our free choices. In this manner, God did not ordain our choices, but sees the end result of such.

 

Check the Book. 'Satan is the god of this world.' With all the power of Almighty God He still according to His sovereign will, has decreed the free agency of human beings. He will invite, convince, convict sinners but He will not override what He has decreed. In a real sense, God is not doing too well, considering that only 2-3% of all of the world can in any way be considered Christian. At the Great White Throne Judgment He will deliver His verdict and sentencing to all who have not facilitated their sovereign right as human beings to receive Christ.

 

??????

Ken
The Happy Calvinist

[ July 20, 2002, 10:32 PM: Message edited by: Ken Hamilton ]

 

Well said. But I have repeatedly asked you not to state our position for us. Admit that it is your position, not ours. We do not believe that and never will. Period.

 

These types of personal attacks will not be tolerated. You are being warned. Continued posting of this type will result in a temporary suspension for your demeanor. This is wholly inappropriate and incompatible with the graces that are to be being demonstrated.

 

If your version of the Arminian position involves obtaining salvation without the Gospel of Christ you might as well bail from the discussion now because we will never find common ground.The Bible is explicit about this issue.

That doesn't make any sense.If everything about us is already known, that is if God already knows what you will do or what will happen regarding any given circumstance, then there can and will always be only one possible outcome, and that is the one God knows will be.

[ July 21, 2002, 03:27 PM: Message edited by: Odemus ]