The strong case against a pre-tribulation rapture

In my view there is indeed a big tribulation coming up - and also the 150million+ tribulation of the past - "counts". Both are "in the future" to John and Matthew and Paul when they write about it.

Given that 150 Million is many times large than all of the Christian world at the time they were writing - they would have no way to claim that the Christian church would NOT go through the future Tribulation (since we already know that history by now). So at best they could have written something about a massive tribulation killing 150 Million - followed by some other whopper of a tribulation.

Which is not the way they write.

For them looking forward over the next 2000 years it is all one whopping tribulation.

in Christ,

Bob

 

As for the 490 year timeline of Dan 9 (70 weeks as Daniel calls it) -- the key is that there is not ONE single timeline in the Bible (apocalyptic or not) that you can "slice and dice" sticking massive gaps of undefined time into it.

In Daniel 9 - the chapter STARTS with the 70 year prophecy of Jeremiah - non slicing no dicing no chopping no slashing that timeline into a bunch of disconnected segments.

That is just not how a timeline works -- as it turns out.

This holds true with ALL timelines in the Bible. Better to trust the Bible on this one.

in Christ,

Bob

 

Every generation suffers persecution. The First Epistle to Peter was written to "suffering Christians," and is applicable to those under Christians. Paul teaches that if Christians are not persecuted, do not suffer, then it is questionable if they are really Christians.

Romans 8:16 The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
--We are heirs of God and joint-heirs with Christ; only if we suffer with him. Suffering is a part of the Christian life. Suffering and persecution happens in every generation. There is nothing unusual about suffering in the Dark Ages as there is nothing unusual about the over 100 million that have been martyred for their faith in the 20th Century and are continued to be persecuted in the 21st century at a rate even greater than the 20th century. Your astonishment to this fact is what is astounding!!
Which is not the way they write.
[/QUOTE]
What will happen during the Great Tribulation?

Revelation 6:8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.
--Here, One quarter of the earth will die. If this were to happen in the next few years, let's say when the world's population reaches 8 Billion, then that would be two billion deaths!! One quarter of the population of the world.

The here:
Revelation 9:6 And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.
--This is God pouring out his wrath. It will be so severe that men and women all over the world will desire to die, but will not be able to.

And again:
Revelation 9:15 And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men.
--One third of what was left will die again.

The population has now been reduced from 8 Billion to 6 Billion. One third again have died. One third of 6 is 2. That leaves 4; four billion are now left on the earth, half the population than what it started with.



Revelation 9:16 And the number of the army of the horsemen were two hundred thousand thousand: and I heard the number of them.
Revelation 9:18 By these three was the third part of men killed, by the fire, and by the smoke, and by the brimstone, which issued out of their mouths.


Revelation 9:20 And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk:
--But there is no repentance even though they see that this is the hand of God.

Revelation 11:13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.
--7,000 more in the city of Jerusalem, a tenth of the city's population. They died in a God-sent earthquake--a judgment for killing God's two witnesses.

Then in chapter 19 God comes with his armies in heaven and defeats the enemies of Israel, and Israel turns to their Messiah and is saved.

This is what happens in the "Great Tribulation"
This is considerably more than the 150 million you mention.
Read and understand.

 

Pick up a Scofield Bible. There are plenty around. And read his commentary on Daniel 9:24-27. You can even find his commentary on the internet. He will explain it to you.

 

Scofield certainly had some interesting proposals.

But turns out - that is not "The Bible".

All timelines are contiguous by definition of a timeline.

And the Bible makes no exception.

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As for the 490 year timeline of Dan 9 (70 weeks as Daniel calls it) -- the key is that there is not ONE single timeline in the Bible (apocalyptic or not) that you can "slice and dice" sticking massive gaps of undefined time into it.

In Daniel 9 - the chapter STARTS with the 70 year prophecy of Jeremiah - non slicing no dicing no chopping no slashing that timeline into a bunch of disconnected segments.

That is just not how a timeline works -- as it turns out.

This holds true with ALL timelines in the Bible. Better to trust the Bible on this one.

==========================

Though as you point out - if mr Scofield himself were our "Bible" we would have some adjustments to make.

in Christ,

Bob

 

In Matt 24 the elect are gathered to Christ 'AFTER' the "Great Tribulation".

Matthew writes long after the ascension of Christ and Paul writing about the same event speaks of "our gathering together to Him" in 2Thess 2.

Both writers put the gathering AFTER the tribulation.

Impossible to miss.



Matt 24
29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days ... He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."


The man-made tradition of the Pre-trib rapture does not survive Matt 24.

Fits perfectly with 2Thess 2

2Thess 2
2 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,


So then.. what if the Bible is right - and Scofield is wrong? That is the question you have to ask.

in Christ,

Bob

 

That is quite a dogmatic statement you make seeing it is wrong by a long shot. There are many "timelines" in the Bible (probably most) that have many breaks in them. Joel 2:28ff which Peter quotes in Acts 2 is a very good example.

 

Then SHALL the elect be gathered. When? After the Lord comes in power and the glory of His Father with the holy angels.
Has that happened? No.

Prophecy is prophecy. Has Christ come in the power and glory of his Father with the holy angels, and THEN SHALL THE ELECT BE GATHERED. No he hasn't.

Which proves it hasn't happened yet. Christ has not come yet.

It will be impossible to miss. Rev.1:7 Every eye shall see him. That hasn't happened yet.

Half of the world population will die in a period of seven years--from 8 billion to 4 billion, and then some. Has that happened yet? That is during the Great Tribulation.

You are avoiding the next two verses:
Matthew 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
--Then Christ comes.
Then the angels gather his elect together.
Thus: The Great Tribulation; The Coming of Christ, and then the gathering of the elect. In that order. It hasn't happened yet.

You know nothing of hermeneutics; but rather follow EGW.

I suggested you read those notes for an understanding of Dan.9:24-27 only.
The above passage fits with the rapture: "Our coming to Him."
In the Second Coming, it is Christ coming to the world in vengeance to destroy the enemies of Israel and all those who obey not the gospel.

2 Thessalonians 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;

This is the Second Coming. There is no comfort here.

 

And the ones who dont believe this, are wrong. The resurrection, and gathering unto Him takes place, and immediately, when there are no more elect on Earth, God's Wrath is poured out on the ungodly. This takes place at the end of the 2nd 3 1/2 years.

 

Matt 24
29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days ... He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."

Indeed we both appear to agree that -

1. there HAS BEEN a whopping tribulation of 150 million PLUS over the past 2000 years
2. There is MORE tribulation ahead.
3. There is the second coming ahead - that is visible to all.
4. The elect are gathered AFTER Christ appears with all His angels.

Not sure what part of that you expected me to object to - since it "is" my view to start with. How is this supposed to help your usual "BobRyan is evil because he agrees with the Bible and not my view" rant?

From the stand point of the readers of Matt 24 2000 years ago it was ALL HEAD - it was ALL FUTURE. Exegesis does not allow us to "jump over" that detail.

Nor does exegesis allow us to jump over the 150 million between then and now "AS IF" Matt 24 had said something like "there is a 7 year tribulation just before the 2nd coming and all other tribulation does not count".

OR as if Matt 24 had said "There is a tribulation mentioned in Rev 6 and only THAT tribulation is tribulation - all other tribulation no matter how horrific is not tribulation".

Those texts simply don't exist -- and we both know it.

How is that "me ignoring" verses when you are giving the very sequence I insist upon??

You need a more focused argument for your usual "BobRyan is evil" response and "only a cult believes that part of the Bible" response - because so far you can't seem to get away from posting mostly agreement with my view.

Where we "differ" is that you want to consider the slaughter of 150 Million Christians that is future to Matt 24 as something that Matt 24 specifically states is "not Tribulation" or not part of the future-to-50-A.D. future "Great Tribulation".

And I keep pointing out that you have no such text. And we both know it.

in Christ,

Bob

 

Well you are right that 2Thess 1:7 and 2Thess 2 is speaking about the "I will come AGAIN" event that Christ predicts in John 14:1-3 -- we call it "The second coming".

But here again - your act of agreeing with my POV is not helping you oppose it.

These are all talking about the same event.

Matt 24
29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days ... He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."


The man-made tradition of the Pre-trib rapture does not survive Matt 24.

Fits perfectly with 2Thess 2

2Thess 2
2 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,



--------------------

2Thess 2
2 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?
6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time.
7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way.
8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:
9 Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders,


In Matt 24 we have
29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. 30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. 31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."


As for your wild speculation that there is no comfort for the saints in the 2nd coming ....

"At the REVELATION of Jesus Christ...

1 Peter 1
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 to an inheritance incorruptible and undefiled and that does not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, 5 who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
6 In this you greatly rejoice, though now for a little while, if need be, you have been grieved by various trials, 7 that the genuineness of your faith, being much more precious than gold that perishes, though it is tested by fire, may be found to praise, honor, and glory at the revelation of Jesus Christ, 8 whom having not seen you love. Though now you do not see Him, yet believing, you rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory, 9 receiving the end of your faith—the salvation of your souls.



113 Therefore, prepare your minds for action, keep sober in spirit, fix your hope completely on the grace to be brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ


2 Thessalonians 1:7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

2Thess 2: 2 Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, 2 that you not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come.

Matt 24
3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
29 “Immediately after the tribulation of those days ... He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."


You cannot directly contradict scripture and expect your view to hold up.

in Christ,

Bob

 

Scofield set himself up as God, in the notes at the beginning of 2Thes.
He claimed that the book of 2Thes. had an original theme of delineating between the "pre-trib cRapture", and the end of the trib pre-wrath resurrection.
He claimed that a mistake by the translators, left 2 Thes. teaching, instead, that they are in fact one singular event.
He knew that he couldn't make the case for his Darbyism, on scripture alone, so instead of repenting, he impuned the scripture (of course he set up a straw man called "translators", but he really sought to unseat the Holy Ghost, and make himself the sole guide into all truth).

 

I don't agree with Scofield on everything. Everyone is entitled to his or her opinion on any passage of scripture.
The only place I was recommending Scofield was in Daniel 9:24-27, where he does a fairly good job in explaining what the 70 weeks mean and how they are to be calculated. I could do the same, but why put all that effort here when someone online and easily accessible has already done it for you?

 

This is the rapture. It takes place before the Tribulation even begins

The Day of Christ, here, is a more generic term, as "The Day of the Lord" is in the OT. It refers to the Second Coming plus the Tribulation. That time is coming. The rapture takes place first. Therefore it is a time of comfort for you. Don't be troubled. You won't be there. You will be raptured.

There will be a falling away first.
The above does not refer to those losing their salvation, but rather a general decrease in Christianity as we see now. Islam is exploding. Paganism is on the rise, so is the New Age movement, secular religions like humanism, and many of the cults. Biblical Christianity (evangelicals) are not having much effect in comparison. Their missionaries are on the decline. As older missionaries retire there are few to take their place.

Then the man of sin shall be revealed. That will not happen until the rapture takes place. The man of sin or the anti Christ could be alive now. But he will not be revealed until Christians are raptured.

He opposes everything that our Lord stands for. He will enter into the Temple of Jerusalem and try to rule there and try to prove that He is God. Remember that Christians and thus the influence of Christ and His Spirit has now been removed from the earth.

He that withholdeth or restrains is the Holy Spirit. He is taken out of the world. How? All believers have been taken out of the world. The restraining influence of the Holy Spirit was removed when the believers were raptured for the Holy Spirit indwelt them.
The believer is to be the salt of the world. Salt is a preservative. It holds back the corruption.

He who now lets--He who now restrains. It is an Old English word. The Holy Spirit will be taken out of the world via the rapture. The iniquity of the Anti Christ will be in full swing. Evil will be working every where during this Tribulation period.

Now the Antichrist will be revealed, for the Holy Spirit (the sum total of all believers) through the rapture have been removed. At the end of seven years, the end of the Tribulation, The Lord will conquer him. Read Rev.20:10.

Christ will defeat the Antichrist and the false prophet, whose coming is after the working of Satan who comes with signs and lying wonders. All of this is in the Tribulation (yet to come).
The believers will not be there. However they will come with Christ as part of his armies, as it is described in Revelation 19.

You are completely blind to these passages. You post them all together as if they all mean the same thing. They don't. They differ. I have offered this one as an example.

 

Motives. I don't trust Cyrus' motives. He obviously had biterness against the very Translation to which he attatched his study material.
Why didn't he use the RV? It was available, and he obviously preferred it.
So I don't trust his work, any of it, or any of his students...

 

Don't shoot the message because of the messenger.
The way he calculates the time in that passage is sound. Bob believes the time calculated is linear with no breaks. This simply gives a good explanation why that can't be so. That is all I am showing.

 

Why dont you articulate it yourself, then, if you believe it to be true, and leave any reference to Schofield out of it?
Pointing someone to a blind guide only weakens your arguments.

 

Praise the LORD!

 

It is a child who won't eat any green food because he doesn't like peas and peas are green, therefore all green food is not good.
You are acting like a child.

I am not a Calvinist. But I use Calvin, and many other works that are Calvinist in nature. Read critically. You don't have to accept everything you read. Glean the truth; reject that which is not truth.

If you can't do that you shouldn't be reading the majority of the posts on this board.
Scofield has well explained Daniel 9:24-27. I don't shoot the messenger if the message is right. His message on that passage is fairly sound.
You are entitled to your opinion. IMO you are simply being childish.