The Tide Shifting Against the Death Penalty

[Andy T.]

No, I touched your "certitude" nerve.

Are you certain about that? :laugh:

I'd rather debate with the likes of Matt Wade, since he is at least pro-life on the matter of abortion. You have stated on this board that you are very certain that you are most definitely uncertain about when life begins. So you need to go take a remedial course in Biblical thinking, and when you pass that, then you can come in the debate that Matt and I are having.

 

[matt wade]

So are you saying that you would refuse to take part in any war that the U.S. may call you to? You are a complete 100% pacifist at all times whatsoever? You are willing to go to jail for this? I'm just trying to see how committed you are to your own consistency, which is not rooted in Biblical thinking, BTW.

I'll answer your question with as much honesty as I can. I don't claim every bit of what I'm about to say is true to how God would have me act. My carnal nature may come through in some of what I say.

If I was drafted to go fight in a war, where my family and loved ones were not in immediate and direct danger, I would refuse to take part in that war. If the war was happening on my door step and my family was in immediate danger, I would protect my family and give my own life for them.

 

[Crabtownboy]

How many states have executed innocent people ?

In Montana:

DNA tests have proven Jimmy Ray Bromgard to be innocent of the rape for which he is serving a 40 year sentence. Tuesday he expects to walk out of Montana's Yellowstone County Courthouse a free man. At 33, almost half his life has been spent in prison for a crime he didn't commit. Questions linger, but they are not about Bromgard's innocence.

http://74.125.47.132/search?q=cache...A+innocent+execution&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=6&gl=us

Connecticut, Washington DC, Utah, Idaho, Minnesota, Kentucky, Tennessee and South Carolina are states that have exonerated one innocent person in each of these States. Arizona, Mississippi, Kansas and Alabama have each released two innocent people. Maryland, Montana, Wisconsin and Michigan 3

bold emphasis mine
I found these quickly, but I am too busy to do deeper research into the topic of people found not guilty through DNA.

http://74.125.47.132/search?q=cache...A+innocent+execution&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=2&gl=us

 

[Andy T.]

I'll answer your question with as much honesty as I can. I don't claim every bit of what I'm about to say is true to how God would have me act. My carnal nature may come through in some of what I say.

If I was drafted to go fight in a war, where my family and loved ones were not in immediate and direct danger, I would refuse to take part in that war. If the war was happening on my door step and my family was in immediate danger, I would protect my family and give my own life for them.

So you're saying that protecting your family would be against God's will? Don't you see how twisted that thinking is? I know the typical Bible verses that you would throw out to justify such sloppy thinking, but you are grossly misinterpreting and twisting the meanings of those verses.

 

[THEOLDMAN]

Are you certain about that? :laugh:

I'd rather debate with the likes of Matt Wade, since he is at least pro-life on the matter of abortion. You have stated on this board that you are very certain that you are most definitely uncertain about when life begins. So you need to go take a remedial course in Biblical thinking, and when you pass that, then you can come in the debate that Matt and I are having.

yOU ARE WRONG AGAIN ! I belive life begins at conception, I'm not SURE when we become ensouled. I don't need a "course" ,I have the Holy Spirit to help me.

 

[matt wade]

So you're saying that protecting your family would be against God's will? Don't you see how twisted that thinking is? I know the typical Bible verses that you would throw out to justify such sloppy thinking, but you are grossly misinterpreting and twisting the meanings of those verses.

No...I'm not saying that at all. Where did I say that? I don't know what God's will in that situation would be. I was simply saying what I would do in that particular situation and that I don't know whether God was approve of my actions or not! I don't plan to use any verses to justify that position. I already stated that the position was from my carnal nature and not something I am trying to justify by God's Word.

 

[Andy T.]

No...I'm not saying that at all. Where did I say that? I don't know what God's will in that situation would be. I was simply saying what I would do in that particular situation and that I don't know whether God was approve of my actions or not! I don't plan to use any verses to justify that position. I already stated that the position was from my carnal nature and not something I am trying to justify by God's Word.

When you say defending your family from killers comes from your "carnal nature" that is a de facto statement that it is against God's will. Anything that comes from our carnal (i.e., sinful) nature is against God's will, is it not? So if you are sure that such actions would come from your carnal nature, then you can be assured that they are against God's will.

 

[Andy T.]

yOU ARE WRONG AGAIN ! I belive life begins at conception, I'm not SURE when we become ensouled.

Ok, thanks for the distinction. I thought I remembered you defending legalized abortion, or at least questioning if we should make it illegal. From that, I gathered that you were not anti-abortion, at least for the first few months of pregnancy. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Of course, if you are unsure of when a person is "ensouled" then I would think you would play it safe and protect all life from the moment of conception, since it could be ensouled at that point, correct? I mean, why take a chance?

 

[THEOLDMAN]

Ok, thanks for the distinction. I thought I remembered you defending legalized abortion, or at least questioning if we should make it illegal. From that, I gathered that you were not anti-abortion, at least for the first few months of pregnancy. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Of course, if you are unsure of when a person is "ensouled" then I would think you would play it safe and protect all life from the moment of conception, since it could be ensouled at that point, correct? I mean, why take a chance?

I don't defend abortion at any stage of pregnancy. However, I don't belive making it "illegal" will stop it or even reduce it drasticly. Look at how the "drug war" has worked out. Putting more people in cages is not the answer for me. I hardly ever "play it safe". I embrace "mystery" but never "certitude".

 

[Crabtownboy]

Why don't y'all start another thread. Your discussion on abortion is off topic for this thread on capital punishment.

Have a blessed day.

 

[THEOLDMAN]

Sorry buddy ! o.k. back to the Death Penalty or as some here call it "CP". I have one question. If an innocent person is put to death, who in the death house is the murderer 1. The guy who flips the switch (or gives the injection), 2. the judge (or jury) who handed down the sentance. OR 3. all those who support the death penalty. Who has the blood on their hands ?

 

[Mexdeaf]

Sorry buddy ! o.k. back to the Death Penalty or as some here call it "CP". I have one question. If an innocent person is put to death, who in the death house is the murderer 1. The guy who flips the switch (or gives the injection), 2. the judge (or jury) who handed down the sentance. OR 3. all those who support the death penalty. Who has the blood on thier hands ?

I would venture to say that a very small percentage of people who are put to death are truly "innocent". They MAY be innocent of the crime they are put to death for but there is a big chance that they did something else to deserve it.

God isn't stupid, y'know. He wouldn't command something in His word if He didn't mean for us to do it.

 

[THEOLDMAN]

I would venture to say that a very small percentage of people who are put to death are truly "innocent". They MAY be innocent of the crime they are put to death for but there is a big chance that they did something else to deserve it.

God isn't stupid, y'know. He wouldn't command something in His word if He didn't mean for us to do it.

Do you stone your children when they are rebellous ?

 

[Mexdeaf]

In Montana:


http://74.125.47.132/search?q=cache...A+innocent+execution&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=6&gl=us


bold emphasis mine
I found these quickly, but I am too busy to do deeper research into the topic of people found not guilty through DNA.

http://74.125.47.132/search?q=cache...A+innocent+execution&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=2&gl=us

Let's see- 270 'innocent' people- I say 'innocent' because they were exonerated from the crimes that they were on death row for and if we were to look at each one individually most of them probably have lists of capital crimes as long as my arm- out of 3,000 or so on Death Row in all of the states- that's less than 1%. I wonder how many of the 'innocent' ones have returned to prison after being found 'innocent'?
Of course they aren't going to mention the cases they check where the 'guilty' are indeed, guilty, which would be 99% of the time, presumably.

Like I said, God ain't dumb.

 

[Mexdeaf]

Do you stone your children when they are rebellous ?

Didn't have to- I used the rod (another Bible principle, by the way) so that by the time they were adults they didn't have a problem with rebellion.

God ain't dumb.

 

[Andy T.]

Sorry buddy ! o.k. back to the Death Penalty or as some here call it "CP". I have one question. If an innocent person is put to death, who in the death house is the murderer 1. The guy who flips the switch (or gives the injection), 2. the judge (or jury) who handed down the sentance. OR 3. all those who support the death penalty. Who has the blood on their hands ?

I don't know - I embrace "mystery" over "certitude." Why do we need certitude when we can cling to mystery in such matters? There, that makes me feel so pious. I am certain that embracing mystery is the only way to go.

 

[Crabtownboy]

I would venture to say that a very small percentage of people who are put to death are truly "innocent". They MAY be innocent of the crime they are put to death for but there is a big chance that they did something else to deserve it.

So just because they are on death row they deserve to die. That is the jest of your argument. Seems a bit harsh.

Let's say you were accused and convicted of a crime you did not commit and you were given the death sentence. And let's say the worst thing you have ever done was get a speeding ticket. So, you deserve death because you were found guilty of a crime you didn not permit, but since you are a criminal with only a speeding ticket crime ... you deserve death.

Give me a break.

 

[Mexdeaf]

I would venture to say that a very small percentage of people who are put to death are truly "innocent". They MAY be innocent of the crime they are put to death for but there is a big chance that they did something else to deserve it.

So just because they are on death row they deserve to die. That is the jest of your argument. Seems a bit harsh.

Let's say you were accused and convicted of a crime you did not commit and you were given the death sentence. And let's say the worst thing you have ever done was get a speeding ticket. So, you deserve death because you were found guilty of a crime you didn not permit, but since you are a criminal with only a speeding ticket crime ... you deserve death.

Give me a break.

Perhaps I should have been more clear- it would be interesting to see how many of the 'innocent' have nothing more than a speeding ticket to their name. I would be surprised if more than 5% of the 1% have never been charged with another capital crime before they got the death penalty.

 

[Marcia]

To be anti-abortion but pro capital punishment is as contridictory as the other way around. If you are pro-life then be pro-life. Don't be pro-life in one area and pro-death in another. It is always interesting to me how many anti-abortion people love the babies, but hate people once they are adults and do not agree with them. Totally a contridiction.

DNA has shown we have put people to death who are innocent and DNA has freed a fair number of innocent people from death row. Should we not celebrate their being saved from death?

There is no biblical or even secular ethical support, imo, for abortion which is killing an unborn child who has not had a chance to live outside the womb yet.

There is, however, biblical support for the death penalty. Some disagree that there is such support, but there are passages one can argue do support it.

Since life is so sacred, then one who deliberately takes a life, forfeits his (Gen. 9). The question OldMan asks about stoning rebellious children is irrelevant, since the first directive about forfeiting life for taking life is in Gen. 9, before the Law.

Also, as stated on a previous thread, it is very difficult to get a death penalty. First, the circumstances of the crime must fit the legal requirements for a death penalty case. Then the prosecutor has to decide if he/she wants to ask for the death penalty in that case. This is actually rather infrequent.

Then a jury must decide, after conviction (if the person is convicted), if the death penalty is warranted based on the legal circumstances. Most death penalty cases involve a killing committed during another felony, or torture and/or callous disregard for life (such as killing someone who is pleading for their life).

I spent over 4 years as a paralegal in the criminal division of the Attorney General's office in Ga and had to read and summarize trial transcripts of murder cases. Very few were death penalty cases, and yet GA has one of the highest number of people on death row.

Additionally, people on death row automatically get appeals all the way up and it usually takes years, so there is much time for appeals.

 

[Marcia]

Most likely every state in the union. All had the death penality for many years before any made capital punishment illegal. Illinois found that they had something like 13 on death row that were proven innocent a few years ago. Other states have found they have innocents on death row.

Read John Grisham's The Innocent Man: Murder and Injustice in a Small Town

Here is a short review of the book:

Were they innocent or actually found not guilty? Not the same thing.

Or were their sentences overturned for poor legal representation, technicalities, or trial errors?