The Calvinist "claim" is that James eas teaching the inevitability of works stemming from "genuine" faith, but that is a perverted view of what James wrote.
Check your other thread for a reply to that view, where in post #1 you railed against faith+works, then betrayed your own stance in post #3
The Vast Majority of Christian Denominations are Christian "cults"
Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by The Biblicist, Aug 11, 2016.
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The Biblicist Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
I suggest you read them in their fuller context and go to their articles on Justification and on Sanctification to correctly represent them.
ON JUSTIFICATION
I. Those whom God effectually calls, He also freely justifies;[1] not by infusing righteousness into them, but by pardoning their sins, and by accounting and accepting their persons as righteous; not for any thing wrought in them, or done by them, but for Christ's sake alone; nor by imputing faith itself, the act of believing, or any other evangelical obedience to them, as their righteousness; but by imputing the obedience and satisfaction of Christ unto them,[2] they receiving and resting on Him and His righteousness by faith; which faith they have not of themselves, it is the gift of God.[3]
For you to claim they believe exactly what I am condemning is inexcusable. -
The Biblicist Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
I have always taught that justification never occurs in a vacuum but that regeneration and justification are simeltaneous events, distinct from each other as actions, but not distinct from each other in time and that good works are the essential consequences of the new birth (Eph. 2:10) as the new birth and good works are in a cause and effect relationship.
There is no such thing as unrepentant salvation. -
6 who will render to every man according to his works:
7 to them that by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and incorruption, eternal life: Ro 2
Compare:
15 in that they show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness therewith, and their thoughts one with another accusing or else excusing them); Ro 2
1 I say the truth in Christ, I lie not, my conscience bearing witness with me in the Holy Spirit, Ro 9
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I guess it comes to what one determines as false enough to constitute another gospel. There are other twists (that Jesus experienced an actual separation from the presence of God on the Cross, that God brings men to the point of decision and then leaves it up to men to save themselves, etc) that may also be a corruption of the gospel message....but we also have to have room for disagreements without lumping people into the "accursed" category. -
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Yes, Roman Catholicism is a religion dependent upon Seven Sacraments in which one must participate however without any certainty as to the final destination of the soul even after The Last Rites - not a guarantee of anything.
HankD -
And just like you don't care how many times the SDA cries "faith alone", and you're willing to look past mere jargon to assess the true meaning garnered from further writings, I also don't care how many times a Protestant cries "faith slone". Their further writings display a view which includes the absolute necessity of good works in order to gain entrance into heaven.
Did you read what I quoted from Westminster on good works? That the end of their good works is eternal life ??
Yes or No ? -
The Biblicist Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
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The Biblicist Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
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The Biblicist Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
The bible does say "without holiness no man shall see God" and good works are the fruits unto holiness. There is no such salvation in scripture without true gospel repentance and true gospel repentance is manifested in good works. Now how much good works is another question altogether as a child of God can range from Lot to Abraham in that category, but there is no such thing as a saved person void of all good works. That does not mean the good works are causal in obtaining eternal life or included in justification but they are the necessary evidence of regeneration and that evidence will be manifested either a change of attitude and/or action.
A faith that does not work is not saving faith but the faith of demons (James). However, that does not mean good works are inclusive in the doctrine of justification or that justification is progressive in nature.
The Biblical view is justification WITHOUT WORKS not sanctification or regeneration without evidential works. -
For example, John Wesley held strongly to Penal Substitution Theory and Justification by Faith. But he also stood against unconditional election and eternal security of the believer. Wesley was not an unlearned man, and he did not necessarily work out his understanding inconsistently. He was wrong, but we can't superimpose our own "logical conclusions" onto his understanding to place him under Galatians 1 for denying justification by faith (he didn't) because he denied eternal security (which he did). -
The Biblicist Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
Did John Wesley or any of the others define their doctrine of justification by faith so that it excluded all works performed in the life of the believer, thus distinguishing justification from sanctification? Did they admit to justification as a completed action at the point of faith?
The doctrine of justification by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone is the doctrine of eternal security as Biblical justification demands the bill has been paid in full not merely in part and that it is wholly conditioned on the works performed in Christ's own body not in His body plus ours.
The "accursed" classification is based upon the doctrine of justification which includes works performed in our bodies as determinate of forfeiture or obtaining a right standing before God. -
I'll add that I believe much the same as you when applied to the Trinity as well. I see a huge difference between ignorance of the doctrine and denying those truths. -
The Biblicist Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
Let's be clear, the essence of the doctrine of justification by faith is that all works of obedience that obtain a clean bill of justification before God were restricted to and fully completed by Christ in his own body and not in the body of the believer. Any doctrine of justification that crosses that line from works in Christ's own body to works in our bodies falls under "another gospel" and "accursed" classification of the persons teaching it.
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The Biblicist Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
I just read Wesleys sermon on Justification by faith and he repudiates the very essence of the Biblical doctrine as he bases it completely upon remission of sins while repudiating imputed righteousness. He clearly states that the person being justified "worketh not' and is "ungodly" only up to the point of forgiveness or initial salvation. He explicitly states that God does not look at him any differently than what he actually is by his own condition in the act of justification. Imparted righteousness is the only righteousness obtained by the believer at the point of conversion. Wesely repudiates imputed righteousness and thus repudiates the life of Christ as a substitutionary element in his doctrine of justification. He is preaching "another gospel" clear and simple.
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The Biblicist Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
4. Least of all does justification imply, that God is deceived in those whom he justifies; that he thinks them to be what, in fact, they are not; that he accounts them to be otherwise than they are. It does by no means imply, that God judges concerning us contrary to the real nature of things; that he esteems us better than we really are, or believes us righteous when we are unrighteous. Surely no. The judgment of the all-wise God is always according to truth. Neither can it ever consist with his unerring wisdom, to think that I am innocent, to judge that I am righteous or holy, because another is so. He can no more, in this manner, confound me with Christ, than with David or Abraham. Let any man to whom God hath given understanding, weigh this without prejudice; and he cannot but perceive, that such a notion of justification is neither reconcilable to reason nor Scripture.
He saves from the guilt of sin, (and, at the same time, from the power,) sinners of every kind, of every degree: men who, till then, were altogether ungodly;...
It is true that Wesley claims sanctification and justification are two different works of God but what he does is remove from justification the doctrine of imputed righteousness and simply gives the sinner a clean bill of forgiveness in justification without any satisfaction of the righteousness required by by the same law of God that Weslely pardons him from the penalty of, whereas all righteousness is imparted in regeneration and manifested in sanctification and that determines ultimate rejection or acceptance into heaven.
http://wesley.nnu.edu/john-wesley/t...1872-edition/sermon-5-justification-by-faith/
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The Biblicist Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
I have been searching the web for D.L.Moody's view on eternal security and I cannot find anything where he repudiated eternal security. What I can find is where he repudiated the idea that unrepentant sinners can be saved and it seems that he is talking about professions void of any evidence of salvation rather than repudiating the doctrine of eternal security.
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Either you simply don't undersrand what the word WITHOUT means, or you're trying to confuse people, or you're trying to pander to a number of BB members, or who knows whatever possibilities as to why you're doing it. Only God knows that -
The Biblicist Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
Either your own theology does not distinguish between justification and sanctification or between justification and regeneration or you are misinterpreting my position. Justification and only the doctrine of justification is WITHOUT WORKS. Justification is not regeneration and it is not sanctification. Justification is restricted to the works of Jesus Christ performed in his own physical body during his own incarnate ministry on earth and it is completely sufficient and finished WITHOUT WORKS of any kind, by any definition, that can be performed in and/or through our own physical bodies.
This has always been my position and by God's grace it will always be my position.
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