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Featured The WILL of God

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by SavedByGrace, Feb 22, 2021.

  1. Strannik

    Strannik Member

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    Sorry, I just have an Internet glitch here and a lot of text is missing or not translated.
     
  2. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    What we read is this:

    For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy.
    ~ Romans 9:15-16

    Look at the bold print. "It does not depend on human will..."

    That phrase alone destroys the entire free will argument.
    It tells everyone that your interpretation of the passage is incorrect.

    You may choose to keep arguing at this point, but you will be arguing against God and His word. I advise caution when attempting to tell God he his words don't mean what they say.
     
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  3. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    I used Google translate. He butchers Romans 9 in his interpretation.
     
  4. Strannik

    Strannik Member

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    1-5 Here we see how the Apostle Paul grieves that all the Israelites do not receive salvation, even though all the promises belong to them according to the flesh (predestination) Of God.

    6-8 The Apostle Paul here points out that not all the children of Abraham are the children of God, and here it is not that the Word of God has not come true, but that not all the heirs or descendants of Abraham in the flesh are the children of God. And even specifies that the children of God are not carnal children, but children of the promise, that is, those about whom God Himself Personally promised that they would become children to Him regardless of their deeds, since He promised not to the children themselves, but to their parents/ ancestors.

    9-13 Here we see how Paul recalls the events of the birth of Isaac and Jacob. As the Lord God promised and fulfilled His promise. Here you need to remember that the son of Hagar, that is, Ishmael and the son of Rebekah Esau were the firstborn in the flesh, but many miss such a moment as Sarah was the mistress of Hagar, and Hagar became pregnant, then began to rise up and neglect her mistress. So in this situation, the Lord has put everything back in its place with regard to the descendants of Sarah and Hagar.
    In the problem of Esau and Jacob, everyone forgets the point that at least
    Esau and the firstborn in the flesh are considered, but by the father's blessing, Jacob became the firstborn, and so they are both firstborn, since they were born essentially at the same time. And we must not forget that the words of the Lord had a prophetic meaning. He chose someone in whom He saw the qualities and characteristics He needed.

    14-18 In this passage, we see Paul repeating the Lord's words about His Mercy: "14 What shall we say? Is it not true of God? No way.
    15 For He says to Moses: whom to pardon, pardon; one regret, regret.
    (Rom. 9: 14,15) " and his further discussion on this subject.
    Paul goes on to explain that God's Mercy does not depend on our efforts in the flesh or on our desires. The Lord God is merciful because of His Mercy, not because of our efforts to please Him. Although here we must again not forget that He is pleased with such.
    Paul also recalls the situation with Pharaoh:
    "14 What shall we say? Is it not true of God? No way.
    15 For He says to Moses: whom to pardon, pardon; one regret, regret.
    (Rom. 9: 14,15)". But does this mean that the Pharaoh was just like a puppet sentenced to all these tortures, just so that the Lord God could show His strength and coolness? Of course not. God gave Pharaoh the opportunity to make the right choice, so He sent 10 plagues of Egypt, but knowing the character of Pharaoh, He told Moses:
    "19 But I know that the king of Egypt will not let you go, unless you force him with a strong hand;
    (Exodus 3: 19)." So here we see that the Pharaoh did not die because of some purposeful predestination of him to perish, but only because of his pride and bad character. What can be said about the action of the Lord God is only that the legitimate demands of the Lord God provoked the crimes of the Pharaoh.

    19-21 "19 You will say to me,' What else does he accuse me of? For who will resist His will?
    20 And who are you, man, that you dispute with God? Will the product say to the one who made it, ' Why did you make me like this?'
    21 Does not the potter have power over the clay, to make of the same mixture one vessel for honorable use, and another for low use?
    (Rom. 9: 19-21)." Here the apostle begins to explain already on the question of those who say that he sins only because God created him so, and that Paul answers that it is not God who should be blamed for his sins. You never know what you are now, the main thing is that it was for the glory of God and did not lead to the destruction of yourself.

    22-33 Here the apostle Paul brings his whole thought to the logical conclusion that God did not bring to salvation those whom the Jews had expected in the flesh, but those whom the Lord God had promised since the time of Adam and through all his prophets. He even clarified by calling Abraham the father of all nations, and not the father of only Israel (the Jews).
    Paul explains that the Jews hoped to be saved by fulfilling the Law of Moses according to the flesh, but they forgot about the Spirit of the Law and that the Lord promised to save all who would call on His name, and He himself taught everyone who needed it to call on His Name. In the Mosaic Law, for example, it was said that the stranger should not be cast out, but on the contrary, if he himself wished, then he was welcomed and helped to accept the Teachings of the Mosaic Law.
    ===============================================
    So as we can see, the Calvinists in this chapter tore out a couple of texts (verses) and distorted them contrary to the Sound Teaching of Christ.
     
  5. Strannik

    Strannik Member

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    Well, I do not read the Epistle to the Romans through a translator, but in a Synodal Translation.
     
  6. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Google tranlation:
    The Bible never says that people are saved by their free will. God always saves by His mercy.
    As far as your puppet argument is concerned, this is the same argument Paul rejects in Romans 9. If you do not accept what God tells you, then you are walking a dangerous path of disobedience.
    Romans 9: 6-24
    But this does not mean that the word of God has not come true. For not all who descended from Israel belong to Israel, and not all the children of Abraham, because they are his descendants, but "through Isaac your descendants will be called." This means that the children of the flesh are not children of God, but the children of promise are considered descendants. For this is what the promise said: "At about the same time next year, I will be back, and Sarah will have a son." And not only so, but also when Rebekah conceived children from one person, our forefather Isaac, although they were not yet born and did nothing good or bad - so that God's purpose of election could continue not because of works, but because of the caller, she was told: "The elder will serve the younger." As it is written: “I loved Jacob, but I hated Esau. “What shall we say then? Is there an injustice on the part of God? In no case! For he says to Moses: "Whom I will have mercy, I will have mercy, and whom I have compassion on, I will have pity." This means that it does not depend on human will or efforts, but on a merciful God. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: “For this reason I raised you up, in order to show my strength in you, and so that My name might be proclaimed throughout the whole earth.” So, he has mercy on whoever he wants, and hardens whoever he wants. Then you tell me, “Why is he still nagging? For who can resist his will? “But who are you, O man, to answer God? Will what is sculpted say to its creator: "Why did you make me like this?" Doesn't the potter have the right over the clay to make from the same mixture one vessel for honorable use and another for dishonorable use? What if God, desiring to manifest His wrath and manifest His power, endured with great patience the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction in order to proclaim the riches of His glory to the vessels of mercy He had prepared in advance for glory - even us whom He has called, not only from the Jews, but also from the Gentiles? [/ QUOTE]
    14-18 here we see that God has mercy on whomever He wants, and this Grace of God does not depend on how righteous we are and how diligently we fulfill the Law according to the flesh (as Paul said elsewhere: “God does not eat or drink, but in a righteous life. "
    ------------------------------
    19-33, referring to 19-22, the Calvinists miss the context of what Paul here writes to the Jews in the diaspora living in the city of Rome. Many Jews then, as now, wondered how God saved the Gentiles not through the fleshly and literal fulfillment of the Law of Moses, but through faith in the Crucified and Risen Christ. Here Paul explains to the Jews that it is not their business to know why God suddenly (as it might seem) decided to replace the Old Testament with the New. Here the apostle, recalling the prophets Hosea and Isaiah, recalls that God simply warned that no matter how many Jews there were, a small part will be saved due to apostasy and simply dead observance of the traditions of the Law, but many Gentiles will be saved without observing the same Law according to the flesh
     
  7. Strannik

    Strannik Member

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    ====================================================================================
    And I did not say that people are able to save themselves. People can destroy themselves or otherwise lose salvation, but in terms of salvation, people can accept or reject salvation, as I told you in the 9th chapter of the Epistle to the Romans.
    ===================================================================================

    ²⁹ Then he called for a light, and sprang in, and came trembling, and fell down before Paul and Silas, ³⁰ And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved? ³¹ And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house. ³² And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house. ³³ And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed their stripes; and was baptized, he and all his, straightway. ³⁴ And when he had brought them into his house, he set meat before them, and rejoiced, believing in God with all his house.Acts 16:29-34
    © Библия Онлайн, 2003-2021.

    ²⁴ And some believed the things which were spoken, and some believed not. ²⁵ And when they agreed not among themselves, they departed, after that Paul had spoken one word, Well spake the Holy Ghost by Esaias the prophet unto our fathers, ²⁶ Saying, Go unto this people, and say, Hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and not perceive: ²⁷ For the heart of this people is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes have they closed; lest they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them. ²⁸ Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it. ²⁹ And when he had said these words, the Jews departed, and had great reasoning among themselves.Acts 28:24-29
    © Библия Онлайн, 2003-2021.
     
  8. Strannik

    Strannik Member

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    You confuse the fact that salvation is not by works of righteousness, and you do not reject the freedom to choose faith.
     
  9. Strannik

    Strannik Member

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    ==========================================
    As you can see, in order to be saved, people must voluntarily accept the Word of Truth themselves.
    ----------------------------

    ¹⁹ Wherefore, my beloved brethren, let every man be swift to hear, slow to speak, slow to wrath: ²⁰ For the wrath of man worketh not the righteousness of God. ²¹ Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls. ²² But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves. ²³ For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass: ²⁴ For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was. ²⁵ But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed. ²⁶ If any man among you seem to be religious, and bridleth not his tongue, but deceiveth his own heart, this man’s religion is vain. ²⁷ Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.James 1:19-27
    © Библия Онлайн, 2003-2021.
     
  10. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    All I had done was post a Google translation of your untranslated post.
     
  11. Strannik

    Strannik Member

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    And what's wrong?
     
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  12. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    If anything, my misunderstanding. I copied and pasted to and from the Google translater, that was all I had done.
     
  13. Strannik

    Strannik Member

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    [QUOTE = "37818, post: 2683547, member: 14338"] Во всяком случае, мое недоразумение. Я копировал и вставлял в переводчик Google и обратно, это все, что я сделал. [/ QUOTE]
    I also noticed that my translator sometimes translates in a strange way.
     
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  14. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    You have truly misinterpreted Romans 9. I will address the huge misstatement of many others.
    "He chose someone in whom He saw the qualities and characteristics He needed."

    The above is an utterly false statement. Jacob's very name tells you how wretched he is. There is nothing in Jacob, which God "needed." God chose Jacob despite the fact that he was no better than Esau and perhaps worse. After all we read that Isaac loved Esau and intended to give Esau everything in the birthright and blessing.
    God does not tell us why He chose Jacob. We only know that it was God who chose and it was by God's will, not by man's will.
    Moreso, you ignored the very fact that God tells you it is not by man's will, but by God's will. You stated earlier that it was 100% man, yet the Bible tells you exactly the opposite. Salvation is 100% God.
    Since you choose to ignore God and his word while fabricating an interpretation that is false, I can foresee no reason to discuss this with you any further.
    Peace be with you.
     
  15. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    You cannot see that you preach salvation by works of human reasoning (which is not faith at all). You teach salvation by the law and thus crucify grace at the altar of your own ego. This is doubly proved by your comment that man can also lose his salvat by his own works.
    In your doctrine Jesus isn't even necessary.
     
  16. Strannik

    Strannik Member

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    Your mistake is that when you think and understand in human terms, you try to attribute them to God. The fact that God Chose Jacob does not reject the other fact, that He chose Jacob, and based on His foreknowledge of him and all his descendants, but that does not prevent one to say by God to Moses that He will exterminate all the Jews and create a new nation from Moses what Moses himself has decided to give up.
     
  17. Strannik

    Strannik Member

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    ¹⁹ Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. ²⁰ But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? ²¹ Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? ²² Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? ²³ And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. ²⁴ Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. ²⁵ Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way? ²⁶ For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.James 2:19-26
    © Библия Онлайн, 2003-2021.
    =================================================
     
  18. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    Faith is a gift given to those whom God chooses to redeem. The very nature of faith is one of action, not observation. Thus the claim that one has faith is either proved or disproved by the work which faith does.
    However, no one who is unredeemed has faith. Instead they have works of the flesh which may attempt to mimic faith. After all, Satan is an imitator and is the father of lies.

    If you understood grace, you might also understand the gift of faith. But, as it now stands, you understand law and attempt to gain heaven by the law, which is a sure failure.
     
  19. Strannik

    Strannik Member

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    You seem to forget that people may not accept any gift...
     
  20. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

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    You seem unaware that God only gives gifts to his children.
    Does a child look at his father and despise the gift? No.
    God gives his gifts, very deliberately, to his beloved. He does not place it on a street corner and then sit back to see who might happen upon the box and per chance open the box as opposed to those who walk past it. If that were the case, God's love would be less than an earthly parent. But, God isn't that way. God chooses his children and then lavishes gifts upon them out of the storehouse of His love.

    Please, don't cheapen God's love by stating that the gift is only good if a person accepts it. That makes God a passive wimp and a poor father. What an aweful concept of God.
     
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