The Willingness of men

Austin you are a one trick pony. Read the whole post and not cherry pick words. That is the standard of all the calvinists on here. When will you deal honestly with the text of the LBCF which you hold higher than scripture. Calvinists are the ones that require God to send billions to hell for His glory. That is a sick theology. You hold to TULIP which is not scriptural and trumpet the LBCF as if it were scripture yet when someone quotes the text you say no that is not what it means.

Austin you love to add words to me that I did not say and ignore what I did say you are hopeless to deal with. You live in an echo chamber. The truth will never get through to you as you are blind and deaf, such a shame. But then again you really have no choice in what you believe as you were determined to believe it. You really have no way of knowing if what you believe is true or not. Remember all your thoughts and actions are scripted for you by God.
God hath decreed in himself, from all eternity, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely and unchangeably, all things, whatsoever comes to pass .." LBCF CHAPTER 3; OF GOD’S DECREE

Calvinism requires that you all follow along as good little robots and hold to the same tune. God even has to give you the faith to believe so He has to believe for you. Question, how do you know that you are even saved? You have just been programed to think that you are.

I am so glad that God gave me free will so that I can make real choices in regard to my salvation. I know what I believe and I know why I believe it. Free will is a gracious gift from God because He loves humanity and wants the worship of people who freely give it to Him.

 

Glad you agree that the numbers in heaven will be uncountable, so now you agree that it is not those that hold to your calvinist view that will be in heaven but will be those that freely trust in Christ Jesus. You are stating to understand the truth now. You even have sinners going to hell by choice, keep going the truth is getting through to you.
Now here you have fallen of the rails again "God could not have saved one more person or one less person than His perfect plan and purpose saves." Why do you calvinists limit what God can do, do you really think that there are any limits to His authority?
Now you have really lost it, you are making a truth statement when you say Free Will does not exist. How can you make such a statement when it requires a free will to make it. That is unless you are just determined to think that way which means everything you say and think is determined for you so you really are just a robot.
How can I pervert the meaning of a text that I quote? You just refuse to see what the text says. Calvinism and Cognitive Dissonance really do go together don't they.
Quote whole sentences, Hmm now is that what you do, no it is not. But a question for you, what would change other than them trying to back peddle on what they had just said.
But since you asked:
"God hath decreed in himself, from all eternity, by the most wise and holy counsel of
His own will, freely and unchangeably, all things, whatsoever comes to pass;1 yet so as thereby is
God neither the author of sin nor hath fellowship with any therein;2 nor is violence offered to the
will of the creature, nor yet is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather
established;3 in which appears His wisdom in disposing all things, and power and faithfulness in
accomplishing His decree." LBCF CHAPTER 3; OF GOD’S DECREE
To make it easier for you I put the back peddling in italics. When you have to qualify what you wrote then that should tell you what you wrote is in error, but they missed that didn't they.

"Others not elected, although they may be called by the ministry of the Word, and may
have some common operations of the Spirit,12 yet not being effectually drawn by the Father, they
neither will nor can truly come to Christ, and therefore cannot be saved:13 much less can men that
do not receive the Christian religion be saved; be they never so diligent to frame their lives
according to the light of nature and the law of that religion they do profess.

Now that seems quite clear to me. Notice they put in a qualifier but that's ok as God has also made a qualifier for salvation FAITH. But that is where the great difference comes between what the bible says and what calvinists put forward. Calvinists only get the faith God "gives" them after they are saved whereas God requires that we have faith before we are saved. Now which way do you think is correct, Gods way or the calvinist way?

 

I ask not because I am ignorant, but because you imply it by your bitterness against God being Supreme in electing damned sinners to receive His underserved mercy.

 

I quote God's word and you accuse me of suppressing truth. That is a fanciful accusation on your part.

 

Are you saying the election of Jacob (Israel) rather than Esau is a myth? Are you saying God choosing Solomon as King rather than an older son of David is a myth?
Are you saying Paul's comments in Romans 2 and 9 regarding who makes up Israel and is chosen is a myth?

MB, how much of the Bible do you consider to be myth so that you can prop up your error?

 

This is a sad statement from you. You would rather fight against God's word than submit to it.
May God have mercy on your soul, MB.

 

So now BF your saying that calvinism is universalism
"Not in such wording, however its Illustrated, for one Jn 6:44

44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

This drawing is irresistible."

Or are we to believe that the drawing of Jn 12:32 is somehow different?
Joh 12:32 "And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself."

But Joh provides an answer
Joh 6:45 "It is written in the prophets, 'AND THEY SHALL ALL BE TAUGHT OF GOD.' Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me.
And you may be asking what did they have to hear and learn? Well how about this:
Eph 1:13 In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,

Joh 3:14 "As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up;
Joh 3:15 so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life.
Joh 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
Joh 3:17 "For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.
Joh 3:18 "He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

I do not know how God could have made it any clearer for us. We are saved because we believe in Christ Jesus, not so that we will believe in Him. Calvinism has it backwards. God in His love has made it possible for anyone to come to faith in His son. That is the beauty of the gospel.

 

silverhair

Now you are being dishonest by misrepresentation friend.

 

where did I post that?
men are born as enemies of God, by nature children of wrath, dead and guilty in Adam.

 

Where do you find that except in your calvinist theology.

 

What was it you said in post #32 in response to MB’s comment “No where in scripture is irresistible Grace even mentioned.”

Here it is

Not in such wording, however its Illustrated, for one Jn 6:44

44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw G1670 him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

This drawing is irresistible. Your words BF52

The effectual call of grace 1 Pet 2:9

9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;

This call is effectual, irresistible , in that it calls a person out of darkness and into Gods marvellous light.

Its the call of grace as Paul experienced Gal 1:15

But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace,

Its irresistible grace here Ps 110:3 again your words BF52

3 Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth.

What makes them willing but the power of Gods Grace

++++

Now you say I am being “dishonest by misrepresentation”. How is that, your the one that jumps to the conclusion that draw in Jn 6:44 in irresistible

This drawing is irresistible. Your words BF52

And you do this without any warrant to do so, it is just your theology that leads you there.


When I compare that to what Christ Jesus said in Joh 12:32 "And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw G1670 all men to Myself." What other conclusion can I come to. You are promoting universalism. That is unless your now saying that draw in Jn 6.44 is resistible in which case you would be right in line with all the following and with the bible.


Thayer Definition: G1670

1) to draw, drag off

2) metaphorically, to draw by inward power, lead, impel


Now to fully understand what he is saying we need to delve further and look at "impel".

Webster defines it this way: impel

To drive or urge forward; to press on; to excite to action or to move forward, by the application of physical force [which God does not use], or moral suasion or necessity.

Since God does not use physical force it leaves us with "moral suasion" which is the "act of persuading" or put another way "To influence by argument, advice, entreaty or expostulation [reasoning with a person in opposition to his conduct]; to draw or incline the will to a determination by presenting motives to the mind." see Eph_1:13


TDNT +

In the OT helkein draw {ABP+ G1670}denotes a powerful impulse, as in Son_1:4, which is obscure but expresses the force of love. This is the point in the two important passages in Joh_6:44; Joh_12:32. There is no thought here of force or magic. The term figuratively expresses the supernatural power of the love of God of Christ which goes out to all (Joh_12:32) but without which no one can come (Joh_6:44). The apparent contradiction shows that both the election and the universality of grace must be taken seriously; the compulsion is not automatic.



A Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament and other Early Christian Literature, says helkuo G1670 is used figuratively “of the pull on man’s inner life. . . . draw, attract J 6:44” [Bauer, Arndt, Gingrich, Danker, p. 251].

The Analytical Lexicon to the Greek New Testament, states that helkuo G1670 is used metaphorically “to draw mentally and morally, John 6:44; 12:32” [William Mounce, p. 180].

The Greek-English Lexicon to the New Testament has, “met., to draw G1670, i.e. to attract, Joh. xii. 32. Cf. Joh. vi. 44” [W.J. Hickie, p. 13].

The Analytical Lexicon of the Greek New Testament by Timothy Friberg, Barbara Friberg, and Neva F. Miller says, “figuratively, of a strong pull in the mental or moral life draw, attract (JN 6.44)” [p. 144].

Hebrew-Greek Key Study Bible by Calvinist Spiros Zodhiates, says, “Helkuo G1670 is used of Jesus on the cross drawing by His love, not force (Jn. 6:44; 12:32)” [New Testament Lexical Aids, p. 1831].

I could cite more reference works but it is unnecessary because not a single one of them defines draw as found in Joh_12:32 or Joh_6:44 as “compel or force.”

This gracious working of God does not compel or force anyone to believe but enables all to respond to God’s commands to turn away from sin in repentance, and towards the Savior Jesus Christ in faith.

Now you have to decide are you going to hold to your calvinist ideas or are you going to follow what the bible says. God wants all to come to a saving faith but will not force anyone to do so.

 

"Silverhair,

Hello SH,
I had posted;
men are born as enemies of God, by nature children of wrath, dead and guilty in Adam.

you asked;

I found it in the bible in eph 2. and rom3,and 5...you can find the same thing!
Calvinists find these things in scripture and believe what they read, do you?

 

I wouldn't say that. Calvinism came out of the RCC. It is what you reformers reformed and the rcc is universal. Calvinist took over the old Catholic doctrine of Augustine that makes you a universalist. I remember Dave Hunt. He called you all warmed over Catholics. LOL:mad:

 

You must be talking about Calvinist they think it's there free ticket to ride.
MB

 

Silverhair,

[Glad you agree that the numbers in heaven will be uncountable,]

The Covenant salvation that I and other Calvinists believe and rejoice in is clearly taught in scripture. God has an eternal purpose that is right on schedule.

[so now you agree that it is not those that hold to your calvinist view that will be in heaven ]

SH, I agree to no such thing, I will let you know what I agree with. No need to speculate, I will tell you.
All in heaven will share the view that God is God who in mercy and for His own glory had mercy on each and every redeemed person

[but will be those that freely trust in Christ Jesus.]

All elect believers freely trust in Christ, by His grace and mercy enabling them to do so.

[You are stating to understand the truth now.]
Sh, I have understood the truth from the first days of God making Himself known to me.I did not understand in the detail I do now, But God is God.

[You even have sinners going to hell by choice,]

The only choice sinners make is to continue in sin which they love. They choose sin, God chooses the destination of all who remain dead in sin in Adam.

[ keep going the truth is getting through to you.]

Yes, truth has led me along the way, and I still have much more to learn.

[Now here you have fallen of the rails again "God could not have saved one more person or one less person than His perfect plan and purpose saves."]

I believe in the perfection of who God is. His Holy plan is perfect, and cannot be increased , or decreased an any way.
Sounds as if you do not trust our Holy God to do all His eternal purpose!
Would you like to assist God and suggest what you believe He could have or should have done instead???

[Why do you calvinists limit what God can do,]

God cannot change. God cannot be more perfect, or less perfect, so when He says He has done all He purposes to do, I believe Him, how about you???
[do you really think that there are any limits to His authority?]

Why would you suggest that in less you do not get or understand the Divine Attributes?

[Now you have really lost it,]

You can make as many such claims, but it does not help your posts, which have missed the mark.

[you are making a truth statement when you say Free Will does not exist.]
.
It is a fact, yes. Carnal philosophy suggests it does exist. I do not accept carnal philosophy

[How can you make such a statement when it requires a free will to make it.]

No, it requires self will which the bible says men have.

[That is unless you are just determined to think that way which means everything you say and think is determined for you so you really are just a robot.]

Try to stay focused SH, do not drift into absurd assertions.

[How can I pervert the meaning of a text that I quote?]

You quote a text, then give a perverted understanding of it, as if it is the only way to understand the text.
Your take on Jn12:32 is an example.

[You just refuse to see what the text says.]

Or, I see it just fine, and I see your error, so it seems to you as if I do not see it.

[ Calvinism and Cognitive Dissonance really do go together don't they.]

You try to find refuge in this kind of comment, but we see through it.

[Quote whole sentences, Hmm now is that what you do, no it is not. But a question for you, what would change other than them trying to back peddle on what they had just said.]

A dishonest portrayal of what was said negates what was said originally.It is quite dishonest.


[But since you asked:
"God hath decreed in himself, from all eternity, by the most wise and holy counsel of
His own will, freely and unchangeably, all things, whatsoever comes to pass;1 yet so as thereby is
God neither the author of sin nor hath fellowship with any therein;2 nor is violence offered to the
will of the creature, nor yet is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather
established;3 in which appears His wisdom in disposing all things, and power and faithfulness in
accomplishing His decree." LBCF CHAPTER 3; OF GOD’S DECREE]

[To make it easier for you I put the back peddling in italics. When you have to qualify what you wrote then that should tell you what you wrote is in error, but they missed that didn't they.]

Here is a very clear and scriptural presentation that will answer all of your objections quite soundly. You or anyone else here will not even begin to be able to refute it.

https://www.sg-audiotreasures.org/downing/wd_decree.mp3

If you outline it you will not have the same objections you are offering now, you might come up with new objections unless truth breaks through to you.
["Others not elected, although they may be called by the ministry of the Word, and may
have some common operations of the Spirit,12 yet not being effectually drawn by the Father, they
neither will nor can truly come to Christ, and therefore cannot be saved:13 much less can men that
do not receive the Christian religion be saved; be they never so diligent to frame their lives
according to the light of nature and the law of that religion they do profess.]

[Now that seems quite clear to me]

But it is not clear to you.
[Notice they put in a qualifier but that's ok as God has also made a qualifier for salvation FAITH.]
The sermon will provide the answers.
[But that is where the great difference comes between what the bible says and what calvinists put forward.]

Not at all Calvinists understand what is taught, you guess, add philosophical objections and cloud the issue.

[Calvinists only get the faith God "gives" them after they are saved whereas God requires that we have faith before we are saved.]

That is taught no where in scripture, this is also made clear in this sermon.

Now which way do you think is correct, Gods way or the calvinist way?]

That is one and the same.

 

" Woe unto them that seek deep to hide their counsel from the Lord, and their works are in the dark, and they say, Who seeth us? and who knoweth us?
16 Surely your turning of things upside down shall be esteemed as the potter’s clay: for shall the work say of him that made it, He made me not?" or shall the thing framed say of him that framed it, He had no understanding?" ( Isaiah 29:15-16 ).

Woe declared to those who seek to hide their thoughts and deeds from God.
Questions asked above, "shall the work say of Him who made it, "He didn't make me"?" "Shall the thing that was framed say to Him that framed it, "He has no understanding"?"

" And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing: and he doeth according to his will in the army of heaven, and among the inhabitants of the earth: and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?" ( Daniel 4:35 ).

" But our God is in the heavens: he hath done whatsoever he hath pleased." ( Psalms 115:3 ).

" Whatsoever the LORD pleased, that did he in heaven, and in earth, in the seas, and all deep places." ( Psalms 135:6 ).

" Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,
10 declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:" ( Isaiah 46:10 ).

" And said, O LORD God of our fathers, art not thou God in heaven? and rulest not thou over all the kingdoms of the heathen? and in thine hand is there not power and might, so that none is able to withstand thee?" ( 2 Chronicles 20:6 ).

" Behold, he taketh away, who can hinder him? who will say unto him, What doest thou?" ( Job 9:12 ).

"There are many devices in a man's heart; nevertheless the counsel of the LORD, that shall stand." ( Proverbs 19:21 ).

Questions answered, "Who can hinder Him?"...." I will do all my pleasure"...." None is able to withstand me"...." Many devices ( devisings ) in the hearts of men, but the counsel of the Lord shall stand, not the counsel of men"..."Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth? Tell me, if you have understanding of it." ( Job 38:4 ).


In the above we see a small sampling of what God Himself has to say about how far His authority stretches...
Over everything and everyone that He has made.
The question in Romans 9:19 ( "Who has resisted His will?" ) is answered directly by other parts of what He has said on the subject.
There are many such statements in the Bible that could be shown, not just one "verse".

In addition, doctrines are not based on "verses" MB,
They are based on the truths taught in the Bible, truths established by every word of God.
One of these immutable truths is that when all is said and done, no one can stand against the Lord's purposes.
Therefore, if anyone is declared to have resisted God, it is because He allowed it for His purposes.

Those purposes are:

A) Because that person will answer for it at the Judgment, along with the rest of their sins.
B) Because that person is an object of His grace and mercy and He has forgiven them their every sin, including their prior resistance to His will.

 

God condemns all men outside of Christ to the Lake of Fire ( Revelation 20:15 ), MB.
To me, @AustinC is simply acknowledging the fact that it is God who saves, and God who condemns...

Just as Romans 9:14-18 states,
It is not of him who wills, nor of him who runs, but salvation is of God that shows mercy and compassion.

God's very words condemn us all except for Him deciding to be gracious to anyone:

" For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all." ( Romans 11:32 ).

 

Is this a free ticket, MB?

Romans 11:17-22 But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, although a wild olive shoot, were grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing root of the olive tree, do not be arrogant toward the branches. If you are, remember it is not you who support the root, but the root that supports you. Then you will say, “Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in.” That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast through faith. So do not become proud, but fear. For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you. Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off.

 

Well said.

 

I will say one thing, you are consistent wrong but consistent. If you cannot see the error of your theology then there really is not much hope for you. You want a God that controls all your thoughts and actions but I would rather follow the God of scripture. Calvinism requires qualifications of scripture in order to have it fit.
You can continue to live in your echo chamber, and I will just believe scripture.