The "World"

No judgment was passed on Esau before he was born. It was simply stated that he was one of twins and that the younger would rule the elder. That has nothing to do with judgment.

 

Before either one was born , before either did anything good or bad God hated Esau and loved Jacob .

 

That is absolutely wrong, Rippon.
I have responded to that here:
http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=37846&page=2
Go down to posts #16 and 17

The Bible explains Bible.

 

It concerns two nations NOT people.

When did Esau EVER become a servant to Jacob?
Because Rom 9 speaks to that SPECIFICALLY. Hint- He NEVER was, but his people (lineage)were and they were just like him as says the scriptures in Gen25:23. It was about fulfillment of Gods elected purpose between the two.

It is about purpose NOT salvation

 

I still would like to know of any other word in the OT that has a definate meaning consistant with in it rendering EVERY time, and then the NT redefines it or segments it it two two different meanings.

ESPECIALLY when that word is spoken in prophesies corrisponding to it original intent from the OT by the NT writters (again must specifcally John in His writtings but also Paul who knew the OT like the back of hand. Therefore both being familar with those words and definitions, wrote in such a way that contradicted the established and consistant meaning from the OT concernig the word "world" which in the OT was always about the wicked sinners.) Is that even reasonable to assume? IMO - No.

Words and meanings that did not change:
Atonement
Redeem
Priest
Sacrifice
blood
sin
sinner
belief
unbelief
righteousness
unrighteousness
Holiness
unholiness
ect.... (and the list goes on and on)

But World - it changed.

It still means planet, territory (the KNOWN world) (both deal in geography), and in dealing with people it still means Sinners or better relm of wicked and sinful man.

 

Let us just look at a chapter in context concerning the word "World".
Planet - or Relm of sinful man in opposition to Gods Kingdom - ??Saved?? Not in the context it is consistantly refered to:

In this I am just dealing with the contexual meaning of world. In every instance of these chapters (also ALL other chapters of John) the writter John is dealing with those who are Gods and those of the World (in opposition to God own) we see clearly. But ONE spot must be seen with that same context as well. "The Father sent the Son [to be] the Saviour of the WORLD.

Context is not mistaken and niether was John in dealing with the word. It maintains its meaning up till the little spot that seems to be in direct conflict with the Theology of some, and yet contexually it is what it has always been with regard to the scriptures - the relm of wicked and sinful man.

 

Agreed, we both can get long winded.

Noah? Interesting you should bring him into frey. :laugh: Did God or did He not call Noah to do all he was to do. Obviously, and I know you agree which is why we have Noah OBEYING God. (see, I can be smart at times)
However, God did not tell Noah to get his wife or sons and his sons wives. God told Noah to build the ark but did not tell him how many rooms to build in it (or stalls for the animals for that matter) But God told Noah to build...for the earth is filled with violence (and corrupt). Now did this not include Noahs wife and sons and their families, since THEY DID NOT FIND GRACE in the Lords eyes like Noah did?

He was saved because he obeyed God by acting in faith.
That action brought salvation to his house.
Which is another interesting area:

God tells Noah in Chapter 7:1 - for his whole family to come up into the Ark for in THEE (singular, Noah) have I seen righteous before me in this generation.
It is also interesting the 7:23 states 'and Noah only remained [alive], and they that [were] with him in the ark.' Why did God septerate Noah from those on the Ark. We find God repeatedly stating all things concerning Noah...God remembered Noah, ect...

When did God tell Noah to preach the End was coming?
Did Noah take it upon himself to try to save the world that God was about the destroy. Did Noah Love in greater compasity that God?? Of course not, so why did Noah preach for 120 years the judgment of God if God never told him to do it because God was only going to save his family. Think about this James...Noah didn't know how many animals were coming but God did. Noah more than likely assume it would be a mass of both people and animals. (but of course we don't know, but we do know that God did). Which again brings me back to his wife, sons, and their wives who did not find favor nor were called righteous as Noah was, yet we find that it was due to him they were saved.

I know some believe God elected some people to salvation and other come by choice due to those whom He chose. I don't think my brian nor spirit will allow that kind of theology loose in me. Though here it is strange.


But all in all, what make God take notice of Noah? Scripture states because

According to context when did find Grace in the eyes of God, or maybe a different question is WHY did Noah find grace in the eyes of God?
Scripture states Noah was righteous in a generation that was wicked. They knew about God and wanted nothing to do with Him, but Noah was just, righeous, and walked with God... is it no wonder that he found grace in the eyes of the Lord.

 

oops, long winded again :laugh: :laugh:

Sorry James, you tried.
I'll give you that much, you tried. :thumbs:

 

Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad... Rom 9:11. :)

Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad... Rom 9:11. :)

Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad... Rom 9:11. :)

Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."

john.

 

Hello webdog.

1TI 1:8 We know that the law is good if one uses it properly. 9 We also know that law is made not for the righteous :) but for lawbreakers and rebels, the ungodly :) and sinful, the unholy :) and irreligious; for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers, 10 for adulterers and perverts, for slave traders and liars and perjurers--and for whatever else is contrary to the sound doctrine 11 that conforms to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which he entrusted to me.
RO 6:15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace?

God is under law but we Christians are not. Not a bad deal a? :) Foolish would be a foolish thing to say. Shame we can't use the full 8 anymore.

john.

 

Besides sounding like a broken record, you didn't answer any of the questions put forth.

Supply Scriture stating Esau is in hell (what you supplied ain't it).

 

Hello webdog.

Which one of those laws actually affects God webdog? After all, the law says only, "You shall..." Not "We shall..." :)

Love the Lord Me with all My Being? I shall have no false gods before Me? I shall not misuse My Name? I shall honour My mother and father if I had the pair but I Am an Orphanos. I cannot murder. I shall not commit adultery, honest. I cannot steal, all things are Mine. I cannot lie and everything My neighbour has belongs to Me.

Does He keep the Sabbath and/or is He at work to this day?

What law is He under exactly please? If this includes love your neighbour one must ask if He has neighbours and if He has then He has broken His own law because Jesus testifies, and His Father is always in agreement, "Esau I hated." Condemned by His own lips webdog.

God is not God and He is an hypocrite then but then He never was or could ever be under law or be guilty of any crime. He would have to make a law and enforce it against Himself. You know nothing about Sovereignty you democrate you. :) haha! Absolutely in the dark how Despotic He is ain't you?

Jesus did not break the law that He humbled Himself under webdog. It would have broken scripture wouldn't it? ISA 53:11 After the suffering of his soul, he will see the light of life and be satisfied; by his knowledge my righteous servant will justify many, and he will bear their iniquities. (Praise Him!) Jesus did not know everything did He? The Son sustains all things.

12...For he bore the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.​

His course was predestined. :)

Then that would cause Him to be Unsovereign would it not? If He has to answer to a law He is not free but bound. :) If you think it is silly to imagine God being free of law you would not want to know what I think of supposed intelligents thinking He is.

It'll be a pleasure old chap.

Roms 9:13 Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."

NU 23:19 God is not a man, that he should lie,
nor a son of man, that he should change his mind.
Does he speak and then not act?
Does he promise and not fulfill?

NU 23:20 I have received a command to bless;
he has blessed, and I cannot change it.

NU 23:21 "No misfortune is seen in Jacob,
no misery observed in Israel.
The LORD their God is with them;
the shout of the King is among them.

Have it your own way man, God will hate Esau in Heaven then. See what He did to Balaam? Cool or what? Balaam spoke God's word.

john.

 

I'm talking about moral laws, and I think you know that, but would rather erect strawmen.

Is God "unsovereign" because He can't sin? Since God's moral laws are not sin, and breaking them are, can God break them?

Now baalam's in hell too? Anyone else you want to add without Scritpure? How about David? Lot?

 

Just for your peace of mind Rippon: :)

Rom 9:11 Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad--in order that God's purpose in election might stand: 12 not by works but by him who calls--she was told, "The older will serve the younger." 13 Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."

A wonderful passage in a wonderful passage.

PS 33:8 Let all the earth fear the LORD; let all the people of the world revere him.

That's the second time I've shown you 'world' in the OT which does not mean sinners but planet.

john.

 

Hello webdog.

Your morals you mean. What's the problem with strawmen? I prefer dealing with them, it makes the work lighter. :) I asked you to show me what law He is under and you tell me He is under some moral laws? I asked for proof not your word. Show me from scripture where He places Himself under your scruples please.

No the opposite, He can sin because He is Sovereign. Sin against your moral standards for sure:

Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."​

I think Balaam's will was being messed with don't you? :) David and Lot are saved, don't you know that?

john.

 

That's heresy and blasphemy. If God could sin, He's not God.

You've stooped to new lows in your theology, Johnp. It's bad enough you believe He authors sin...now you believe He can sin.

 

You are offended because I say He sins against your morals? Cool. Where's me answers man?

Show me scripture but you can't so you bluster?

What moral laws is God compelled to keep? Yours is all you have shown me. Why does He create poor helpless folk that He knows are Hell bound? Why create them webdog? Are your morals offended by this?

john.

 

I'm offended because you said He can sin, period. That's heresy. If God put them out there, they are HIS morals, not mine.

 

I said He sins against your fine morals that's for sure. :)

If I said God sins, man, that wouldn't be heresy that would just be stupid. :) If God sins then He isn't Sovereign. :) I said God can't sin because sin is disobedience to God. Tell me how He can be disobedient to Himself please. Has He really made a law He is bound to, you do not answer.

I am a Calvinist heretic if you don't mind.

What? Morals? Yours? I have no problem knowing God can do as He pleases. :) What morals in particular or are you just judging the Judge according to webdog? And where can I read all about this in scripture please?

john.

 

As I said prior...if God states them they are His morals, not mine. You don't seem to like that.

That would be both stupid and heresy. I realize if He sins He no longer is sovereign. It seems you have the problem with that. If God states x is sin, and does x Himself, He would be disobedient to Himself.

You said it, not me :)

His.