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Featured Theories of the Atonement

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by SavedByGrace, Apr 2, 2021.

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  1. Aaron

    Aaron Member
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    It's quite clear. He was punished for our sins. We won't be. Your pedantry notwithstanding, that's a substitute.
     
    #41 Aaron, Apr 3, 2021
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  2. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Yes. The chastening was for our sins. I agree. He was sinless and became sin for us.

    It is obvious, I think, that you (and a few others here) cannot see what you presuppose (that God was punishing Christ with the wrath due our sins).

    So we can just move on with the understanding I absolutely agree with Isaiah 53 while rejecting Penal Substitution Theory as a humanistic corruption.
     
    #42 JonC, Apr 3, 2021
  3. MichaelBoryAlis

    MichaelBoryAlis Member

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    Romans 11:36 keeps it simple -
    "For out of Him and through Him and to Him are All Things"

    Or, I Cor 15:28 "And God shall be All in All"

    "All Things" is an interesting Bible Study.
     
    #43 MichaelBoryAlis, Apr 3, 2021
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  4. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Throught Christian history all Christians have confirmed Isaiah 53.

    But throughout history most Christians have not interpreted the passage to mean that God was punishing Jesus instead of punishing us.

    Advocates of Penal Substitution Theory typically defend their interpretation of the passage by offering up the passage and saying "that is what it means".

    But that is not what the text actually states, and historically that interpretation is held by a minority (within Christianity as a whole, it is a majority view with Reformed churches and Baptists).

    So my question was not what verses were used but how do you interpret those passages to mean God punishing Christ instead of punishing us when most Christians have not come to that conclusion.

    The reason I get aggravated in these discussions is thus far no member has explained how they get from Scripture to Penal Substitution Theory (they just pretend there can be no other interpretation).
     
    #44 JonC, Apr 4, 2021
  5. Aaron

    Aaron Member
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    Then let the Law teach you again those things which be the first principles of the doctrines of Christ.

    Lev 1:4 And he shall put his hand upon the head of the burnt offering; and it shall be accepted for him to make atonement for him.
    NIV: accepted on your behalf
    ​
    This act of identification is repeated in the offerings for sin, and offerings for the debts of sin, trespass.

    Whether one is coming for acceptance, to atone for one's sins, and to pay the damages, one brings a substitute, and that one is Christ, and it is all accomplished in Christ's one act on the Cross.

    for he that is hanged [on a cross] is accursed of God. Deuteronomy 21:23

    ​
    Now that it has been established, that all things due our sins, even the penalty, are visited upon the sacrificial victim, it only remains for you to determine whether or not the sins of the elect deserve God's wrath, or if His wrath is even a penalty for sin. If it wasn't poured out on our substitute, then it wasn't due us to begin with.
     
    #45 Aaron, Apr 4, 2021
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  6. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    You are still missing the target. I believe Christ is the guilt offering on our behalf. Deuteronomy 21:23 relates to Isaiah 53 - if Israek considered the man accursed under the Law and was because of a crime killed then the body was hanged in a tree as a sign, but removed prior to sundown.

    Christ did come under the curse for us.

    I an asking you to connect Scripture to the unbiblical myth that God punished Christ (something Peter rejected in his sermon) and that Jesus died instead of us dying

    You cannot because no evidence exists in Scripture. It is a form of Roman Catholicism carried over by some Protestants who do not realize just how Catholic they have remained.

    Penal Substitution Theory owes just as much to Roman Catholic tradition as it does to Scripture.
     
    #46 JonC, Apr 4, 2021
  7. Aaron

    Aaron Member
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    No. I'm dead on. It's just the kink in yer think that enables your fence-riding.

    If Christ didn't suffer it, it wasn't anything we were headed for.
     
    #47 Aaron, Apr 4, 2021
  8. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I am not sure what fence you imagine I am riding (that seems to be a silly claim - I just disagree with your position).


    You are just creating a bit of a strawman. I never claimed Christ did not suffer the fate we are all heading for. Quite the opposite, in fact.

    I disagree that our redemption was founded on God punishing Christ instead of us. Scripture only addresses the "punisher" a few times, and then as "wicked nen" by the "preordained plan of God".

    .
     
    #48 JonC, Apr 4, 2021
  9. Aaron

    Aaron Member
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    k
     
    #49 Aaron, Apr 4, 2021
  10. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    #50 JonC, Apr 5, 2021
  11. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Unless Jesus paid and atoned to the Father our obligated and due sin debt, how can any get saved?
     
    #51 Yeshua1, Apr 5, 2021
  12. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    The divine wrath of the Father towards sin has to be propiation by someone!
     
    #52 Yeshua1, Apr 5, 2021
  13. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    We can show MANY verses supporting it for the scriptures, but you would just reject them!
     
    #53 Yeshua1, Apr 5, 2021
  14. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    NO, the Father punished and judged our sins in the Person of Jesus, as God was in Christ providing for our reconciliation!
     
    #54 Yeshua1, Apr 5, 2021
  15. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Guess main sticking point is that God placed divine wrath against Jesus, but Jesus was a willing participate of that happening!
     
    #55 Yeshua1, Apr 5, 2021
  16. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Did Jesus become our Sin bearer while upon that Cross, was he forsaken by the father?
     
    #56 Yeshua1, Apr 5, 2021
  17. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Are you saying that the Father is greater the Jesus?
     
    #57 Yeshua1, Apr 5, 2021
  18. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    The Spirit Himself was brooding over the Earth in Genesis 1, and he is not Jesus!
     
    #58 Yeshua1, Apr 5, 2021
  19. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Jesus experienced while upon that Cross the very same all lost sinners will in Judgement by God for their sins!
     
    #59 Yeshua1, Apr 5, 2021
  20. SavedByGrace

    SavedByGrace Well-Known Member

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    According to the OT Law sin must be punished to satisfy the wrath of God against us sinners. Jesus the Lamb of God took the punishment upon Himself and became a curse on our behalf. This is what Substitutionary Atonement means.
     
    #60 SavedByGrace, Apr 5, 2021
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