Funny that Bob would recommend a site where people assemble on Sundays and Wednesdays to worship.
I thought SDA's thought Sunday worship was mark of the beast?
To Obey God rather than tradition is legalism? Really??
Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by BobRyan, Jul 12, 2013.
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Originally Posted by DHK
And if you are gong to keep one you must keep them all.
If you fail in one you have failed in them all.
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A cult said there are 1050 commands in the NT. Did you take the time to verify that information? I doubt it.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DHK
For whosoever shall keep the whole law and yet offend in one point he is guilty of breaking all. (James 2:10).
Telling a lie is just as bad as murder. Both break the law.
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Do you believe sin has its consequences?
Just as you believe that all Baptists and Protestants have the mark of the Beast? That would seem salvic to me!
I don't make up models. The truth is in the Word of God. Here is what the Bible says, and what you refuse to accept:
James 2:10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
--Those aren't my words. That is Biblical teaching referring to OT law.
Galatians 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.
--Again not my words. The Biblical teaching here is that you are cursed under the law because you cannot keep it.
You fail to answer my questions. Are you wearing all one kind of clothing as the law dictates? Answer please!
--Part of the law is keeping the Sabbath Day. Along with keeping the sabbath you must keep the other 612 or you cannot be saved. If you break but one of these commands in your lifetime you cannot be saved. That is what he is talking about.
The Baptists are not denominational bound by any one Confession or creed. Learn that.
Therefore your comparisons mean little to me. -
I also point out that the Baptist Confession of Faith is not the "Seventh-day Adventist Confession of Faith" so it is not as though I just discovered an "Adventist document".
I also point out that a number of well known Baptists such as Spurgeon, D.L. Moody and Andy Stanley -- and those that follow along with them - so this is not me finding some "obscure Baptist opinion". And the point of that is to remind people that differ with these men - that this difference is an "in-house debate" if you draw the line on the very Bible doctrines that they affirm.
As you know - the way this is often positioned here is "Adventists believe that" when in fact we all know that on some of these points there is a long list of well-known Baptist sources, teachers, leaders that agree with the specific point named.
in Christ,
Bob -
Your argument is of the form "don't worry about that one or else you have to worry about 613" - I am simply pointing out that even in your own model - you are stuck with 1050 - not merely 613.
http://www.cai.org/bible-studies/1050-new-testament-commands
Turns out - the Bible is not written by a cult.
BTW - there are no "commands from Satan" in the NT.
in Christ,
Bob -
1050 NT commands.
http://www.cai.org/bible-studies/1050-new-testament-commands
I think we can all understand that point.
in Christ,
Bob -
In all fairness you do not even properly interpret what these men believe or what the Confessions say. You misrepresent them. Thus you have no right to use them as any authority when you claim they believe the Sabbath and they don't. It is just another distraction from the real argument being discussed. -
I too have said that
1. the lost cannot "keep the 3rd commandment so well that they do not need salvation" the law is not a way to earn salvation.
Even so - the 3dr commandment is still binding ("do not take the name of God in vain" ) on the saints - as even the "Baptist Confession of Faith" , (And I suspect even you) will admit.
2. I never argued that you are bound by the Baptist Confession of Faith in that statement above. No need to make it up.
3. I pointed to an incredibly obvious point that I at first thought you might agree to on the 3rd commandment - regarding taking God's name in vain. I had no idea you would react against that commandment so strongly.
You have free will - you can do as you wish.
In the mean time this continues to be a perfect example of the Baptist Confession of Faith - seen in this case to be taking a more center-of-the-road acceptance of this simple Bible doctrine, that most Christians would not reject.
in Christ,
Bob -
Satan, in the "Temptation" commanded Jesus: "Fall down and worship me."
That is a command. Is it one of the 1050 mentioned? How would you know if you have not counted them all yourself? You are going by the information posted by an unreliable cult.
The Bible is interpreted by various people.
The RCC interprets it through a Catechism.
The SDA interpret it through EGW.
The J.W. interpret it through Charles Russell.
The Mormons interpret it through Joseph Smith.
That cult or link has its own interpretation also. It is cultish. It does not preach the truth. -
It doesn't matter what the third commandment says.
This discussion is on the sabbath day.
You are just on another rabbit trail. -
Same goes for the RCC. The fact that I differ with them on some points - does not mean I cannot agree with them on any point at all.
And I am happy to stick with the Word - when people are not bent on the idea of making the discussion an issue about "Adventists" as if we are the only people that see the particular issue with moral law - given in Eden to Adam and Eve - and including the TEN Commandments.
Even your own discussions with Biblicist on some of these points reveals the fact that the difference is not at all confined to "just Adventists" on every one of these points.
Rather some points are well known and accepted even within the Baptist denomination (but certainly not by all in the Baptist church.)
I use the document to show instances were agreement exists on one or two specific points - not on all points. The existence of that agreement cannot be denied just because you find it "inconvenient".
I think the objective unbiased reader will discover that point easily.
in Christ,
Bob -
That is the difference between having the information and not having it.
in Christ,
Bob -
And apparently one of the links you are not clicking on is the Matt and Luke accounts of the temptation where in fact Satan never commands Jesus to do anything. Rather Satan says that HE will do this or that - IF Christ will bow down.
There is no command of the form "Fall down and worship" it is an "IF" - form of contract or agreement - asking Christ to agree to terms, conditions. Christ refuses the offer and instead commands Satan "GET thee behind me!".
That is in the form of an imperative - a command. And it is given by Christ to Satan -- it does not come from Satan. And it is not the 1050 list - as I am sure we all knew to start with.
in Christ,
Bob -
On rare occasions here I say that I have the free will do choose this or that -- but far MORE Than that I say that OTHERS here have the free will to do this or that.
Bob
Surely that is not your view of Free Will.
in Christ,
Bob -
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from[/FONT][FONT="]: [/FONT]http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost.php?p=2011586&postcount=65 [FONT="]
[/FONT]
1. Moody vehemently opposes "Sabbath breakers" in his sermon - read it.
THERE HAS BEEN an awful letting-down in this country regarding the Sabbath during the last twenty-five years, and many a man has been shorn of spiritual power, like Samson, because he is not straight on this question. Can you say that you observe the Sabbath properly?You may be a professed Christian: are you obeying this commandment? Or do you neglect the house of God on the Sabbath day, and spend your time drinking and carousing in places of vice and crime, showing contempt for God and His law? Are you ready to step into the scales?Where were you last Sabbath? How did you spend it?.
The Fourth Commandment
Remember the Sabbath Day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:for in six days the LORD made heaven and Earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath Day, and hallowed it.
I honestly believe that this commandment is just as binding today as it ever was.I have talked with men who have said that it has been abrogated, but they have never been able to point to any place in the Bible where God repealed it. When Christ was on earth, He did nothing to set it aside; He freed it from the traces under which the scribes and Pharisees had put it, and gave it its true place.
"The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath." (Mark 2:27)
It isjust as practicable and as necessary for men today as it ever was- in fact, more than ever, because we live in such an intense age.
The Sabbath was binding in Eden, and it has been in force ever since. The fourth commandment begins withthe word remember, showing that the Sabbath already existed when God wrote this law on the tables of stoneat Sinai.How can men claim that this one commandment has been done away with when they will admit that the other nine are still binding?
I believe that the Sabbath question today is a vital one for the whole country. It is the burning question of the present time. If you give up the Sabbath the church goes; if you give up the church the home goes; and if the home goes the nation goes. That is the direction in which we are traveling.
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1. Moody claims the 4th commandment - Sabbath was given to MANKIND in Eden. So does the Baptist Confession of Faith - by contrast DHK thinks it was only given to Israel - starting at Sinai.
2. Moody claims that the Sabbath - of the 4th commandment REMAINS in effect from Eden until today and is just as needful today as it ever was. By contrast DHK condemns Sabbath keepers.
3. Moody claims that Sabbath breakers who insist that the 4th commandment Sabbath was done away with have no grounds to stand on. DHK claims that he vehemently opposes Sabbath KEEPERS.
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in Christ,
Bob[/FONT] -
http://www.baptistboard.com/showpost...1&postcount=75
The Biblicist;2006881
1. You will NEVER find the words "of the week" in any account of the creation Sabbath law anywhere in Scripture - NEVER!
2. SDA and other Saturdarians use logical inference to justify restricting the Sabbath law to the seventh day "of the week." There rationale goes something like this. Our week is based upon the first seven days of creation, therefore, since the seventh day in creation is the Sabbath it follows that the Sabbath is the seventh day "of the week." This is faulty logic as I will point out shortly.
8. It is now wrong to apply it to the seventh day "of the week" as it has been applied by God to the first day "of the week" first by type in the Messianic feasts of Lev. 23 and Lev. 25 and by Messianic prophecy (Psa. 118:20-24 with Acts 4:10-11; Mk. 16:9; heb. 4:2-11) and by Messianic example (Jn. 20; Acts 20:7; 1 Cor. 16:1-2; Rev. 1:10) and by historic custom consistenly after the aposolic age right up to BEFORE Constantine.
9. The "first day of the week" is preceded by six working days, making the "first day of the week" the seventh day Sabbath in that PATTERN of seven.
10. The permanent application to the "first day of the week" is a BETTER Sabbath day observance because it commemorates the greater and finished work of redemption wiht the resurrection of Christ and a BETTER sinless creation of a new heaven and earth to come that begins in the EIGHTH and eternal age to come.
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By contrast -
Mark 7
6 And He said to them, ""Rightly did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written: " THIS PEOPLE HONORS ME WITH THEIR LIPS, BUT THEIR HEART IS FAR AWAY FROM ME.
7 " BUT IN VAIN DO THEY WORSHIP ME, TEACHING AS DOCTRINES THE PRECEPTS OF MEN.'
8 ""Neglecting the commandment of God, you hold to the tradition of men.''
9 He was also saying to them, ""You are experts at setting aside the commandment of Godin order to keep your tradition.
10 ""For Moses said, " HONOR YOUR FATHER AND YOUR MOTHER';(Exodus 20:12) and, " HE WHO SPEAKS EVIL OF FATHER OR MOTHER, IS TO BE PUT TO DEATH';
11 but you say, "If a man says to his father or his mother, whatever I have that would help you is Corban (that is to say, given to God),'
12 you no longer permit him to do anything for his father or his mother;
13 thus invalidating the word of God by your tradition which you have handed down; and you do many things such as that.''
=========================== -
You misrepresent their beliefs.
You quote the introduction of Moody's sermon but fail to read the rest which explains what he believes about the Sabbath. That is deceitful. This discussion is not about Moody and his sermon and the interpretation thereof. So why draw him into this discussion? It is a waste of time.
Likewise the same thing can be said about the Confession and the others that you have said.
I don't believe it because I don't believe it to be Biblical. Baptists believe in soul liberty. I have that right. You want to stick me to a rusty old document. You can't do that.
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Originally Posted by BobRyan
In all fairness you have yet to show that that accusation is correct. I agree with them on some key points - not all - they are Baptist I am not. So you cannot make the wild claim that if I differ with them on one single point - I must differ with them on all points. That would be nonsense.
Even you cannot deny that simple - obvious fact.
Thus it is you that is engaged in misrepresentation.
How were we supposed to miss that simple fact.
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Exhibit 1: Moody makes HIS claim as he opposes Sabbath breakers.
DWIGHT L. MOODYThe Ten Commandments:
Exodus 20:2-17
THERE HAS BEEN an awful letting-down in this country regarding the Sabbath during the last twenty-five years, and many a man has been shorn of spiritual power, like Samson, because he is not straight on this question. Can you say that you observe the Sabbath properly?You may be a professed Christian: are you obeying this commandment? Or do you neglect the house of God on the Sabbath day, and spend your time drinking and carousing in places of vice and crime, showing contempt for God and His law? Are you ready to step into the scales?Where were you last Sabbath? How did you spend it?.
The Fourth Commandment
Remember the Sabbath Day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:for in six days the LORD made heaven and Earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath Day, and hallowed it.
I honestly believe that this commandment is just as binding today as it ever was.I have talked with men who have said that it has been abrogated, but they have never been able to point to any place in the Bible where God repealed it. When Christ was on earth, He did nothing to set it aside; He freed it from the traces under which the scribes and Pharisees had put it, and gave it its true place.
"The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath." (Mark 2:27)
It isjust as practicable and as necessary for men today as it ever was- in fact, more than ever, because we live in such an intense age.
The Sabbath was binding in Eden, and it has been in force ever since. The fourth commandment begins withthe word remember, showing that the Sabbath already existed when God wrote this law on the tables of stoneat Sinai.How can men claim that this one commandment has been done away [FONT="]with when they will admit that the other nine are still binding?
I believe that the Sabbath question today is a vital one for the whole country. It is the burning question of the present time. If you give up the Sabbath the church goes; if you give up the church the home goes; and if the home goes the nation goes. That is the direction in which we are traveling.
[/FONT][FONT="]
[/FONT][FONT="]=======================================
1. Moody claims the 4th commandment - Sabbath was given to MANKIND in Eden. So does the Baptist Confession of Faith - by contrast DHK thinks it was only given to Israel - starting at Sinai.
2. Moody claims that the Sabbath - of the 4th commandment REMAINS in effect from Eden until today and is just as needful today as it ever was. By contrast DHK condemns Sabbath keepers.
3. Moody claims that Sabbath breakers who insist that the 4th commandment Sabbath was done away with have no grounds to stand on. DHK claims that he vehemently opposes Sabbath KEEPERS.
in Christ,
Bob[/FONT] -
You don't know what Moody believes because you won't read the rest of the sermon. You are still ignorant as to what he believes on the sabbath. What a pity that you misrepresent him so. -
THEY claim they believe in the Sabbath -
Even you cannot deny that simple - obvious fact.
Thus it is you that is engaged in misrepresentation.
How were we supposed to miss that simple fact.
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Exhibit 2: the Baptist Confession of Faith - makes its own claims regarding the 4th commandment. And all TEN of the Commandments.
http://www.creeds.net/baptists/1689/kerkham/1689.htm#Ch19
THE LAW OF GOD
19.1 God gave to Adam a law of universal obedience written in his heart,1 and a specific precept not to eat the fruit of the tree of knowledge of good and evil.2 By this he bound him and all his descendants to personal, total, exact, and perpetual obedience. God promised life on fulfilling it, and threatened death on breaching it, and he endued him with power and ability to keep it.3
(1) Gen 1:27; Ecc 7:29; Rom 2:12a,14-15
(2) Gen 2:16-17
(3) Gen 2:16-17; Rom 10:5; Gal 3:10,12
19.2 The same law that was first written in the human heart continued to be a perfect rule of righteousness after the fall.1 It was delivered by God upon Mount Sinai in TEN commandments (written in two tables) the first four containing our duty towards God, and the other six our duty to our fellow beings.3
(1) For the Fourth Commandment: Gen 2:3; Exo 16; Gen 7:4; 8:10,12. For the Fifth Commandment: Gen 37:10. For the Sixth Commandment: Gen 4:3-15. For the Seventh Commandment: Gen 12:17. For the Eighth Commandment: Gen 31:30; 44:8. For the Ninth Commandment: Gen 27:12. For the Tenth Commandment: Gen 6:2; 13:10-11
(2) Rom 2:12a,14-15
(3) Exo 32:15-16; 34:4,28; Deu 10:4
19.3 Besides this law, commonly called the moral law, God was pleased to give the people of Israel ceremonial laws containing several typical ordinances. These were partly concerning worship, and in them Christ was prefigured—his graces, actions, sufferings, and benefits.1 They also gave instructions about various moral duties.2 All of these ceremonial laws were appointed only until the time of the New Testament, when Jesus Christ abrogated them and took them away, for he was the true Messiah and only law-giver, and was empowered to do this by the Father.3
(1) Heb 10:1; Col 2:16-17
(2) 1Co 5:7; 2Co 6:17; Jude 1:23
(3) Col 2:14,16-17; Eph 2:14-16
19.4 To the people of Israel he also gave various judicial laws which lapsed when they ceased as a nation. These are not binding on anyone now by virtue of their being part of the laws of that nation,1 but their principles of equity continue to be applicable in modern times.2
(1) Luk 21:20-24; Act 6:13-14; Heb 9:18-19 with 8:7,13; 9:10; 10:1
(2) 1Co 5:1; 9:8-10
19.5 Obedience to the moral law remains forever binding on all, both justified persons and others,1 both in regard to the content of the law, and also to the authority of God the Creator who gave the law.2 Nor does Christ in any way dissolve this law in the Gospel, on the contrary, he strengthens our obligation [to obey the moral law].3
(1) Mat 19:16-22; Rom 2:14-15; 3:19-20; 6:14; 7:6; 8:3; 1Ti 1:8-11; Rom 13:8-10; 1Co 7:19 with Gal 5:6; 6:15; Eph 4:25-6:4; Jas 2:11-12
(2) Jas 2:10-11
(3) Mat 5:17-19; Rom 3:31; 1Co 9:21; Jas 2:8
19.6 Although true believers are not under the law as a covenant of works to be justified or condemned by it,1 yet it is of great use to them as well as to others, because as a rule of life it informs them of the will of God and their duty, and directs and binds them to walk accordingly.2
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As we can all see from the above -
1. They claim that Gen 2:3 is the 4th commandment given to Adam prior to the fall.
2. They claim that ALL TEN of the TEN Commandments form the MORAL LAW of God.
3. AND they claim - 19.5 Obedience to the moral law remains forever binding on all, both justified persons and others, -
You claim it is not honest to state that Moody claims to accept, defend promote and affirm the Sabbath of the 4th commandment.
Now let's read the text "And see" if that claim of yours holds up to the actual facts.
hint:
The Sabbath was binding in Eden, and it has been in force ever since. The fourth commandment begins with the word remember, showing that the Sabbath already existed when God wrote this law on the tables of stone at Sinai. How can men claim that this one commandment has been done away [FONT="]with when they will admit that the other nine are still binding?[/FONT]
=====================================
THERE HAS BEEN an awful letting-down in this country regarding the Sabbath during the last twenty-five years, and many a man has been shorn of spiritual power, like Samson, because he is not straight on this question. Can you say that you observe the Sabbath properly?You may be a professed Christian: are you obeying this commandment? Or do you neglect the house of God on the Sabbath day, and spend your time drinking and carousing in places of vice and crime, showing contempt for God and His law? Are you ready to step into the scales?Where were you last Sabbath? How did you spend it?.
The Fourth Commandment
Remember the Sabbath Day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:for in six days the LORD made heaven and Earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the Sabbath Day, and hallowed it.
I honestly believe that this commandment is just as binding today as it ever was.I have talked with men who have said that it has been abrogated, but they have never been able to point to any place in the Bible where God repealed it. When Christ was on earth, He did nothing to set it aside; He freed it from the traces under which the scribes and Pharisees had put it, and gave it its true place.
"The Sabbath was made for man, and not man for the Sabbath." (Mark 2:27)
It isjust as practicable and as necessary for men today as it ever was- in fact, more than ever, because we live in such an intense age.
The Sabbath was binding in Eden, and it has been in force ever since. The fourth commandment begins withthe word remember, showing that the Sabbath already existed when God wrote this law on the tables of stoneat Sinai.How can men claim that this one commandment has been done away [FONT="]with when they will admit that the other nine are still binding?
I believe that the Sabbath question today is a vital one for the whole country. It is the burning question of the present time. If you give up the Sabbath the church goes; if you give up the church the home goes; and if the home goes the nation goes. That is the direction in which we are traveling.[/FONT]
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