tongue speakers please answer

I never said "don't study doctrine." what I did say is that we should not seek to entertain discussions that divide the body and cause strife.

The word says, " know those that cause strife and division among you and have no part with them, for they are false teachers and lead away the weak minded believer."

While my learned opponant has so eloquently accused me of adding to the word of God, I could just as easly use all manner of scripture (in context) to conclude that he falls into the "taking away from this word" which then removes his name from the lambs book of life.

However, I believe that to approach a fellow believer (who may for all intents and purposes be the hand and you only the finger) and tell him that you don't need him and that he is a heretic is wrong. In all honesty and honor to God's word, we should pray for those we believe to be in error that God would lead them "into all truth." I believe in the gift of tongues (my church follows the Biblical mandate given by Paul) and I have seen healing in my own family. My husband was healed of retinal cancer by the laying on of hands by the elders of our church (again a Biblical mandate) and we have the medical documentation to prove it. I believe in prophesy (I have witnessed a prophet speak of things to come within a church and God fullfilled that prophesy.) I have studied and am confident. The word tells us, having all confidence in what we believe. There is absolutely no way that I would dare to call those who do not practice these things as the "have nots" or "deceived." For I know that every part of the body of Christ is living and breathing. The ground is level at the foot of the cross, and believers of all evangelical faiths will one day worship together in heaven. I cannot wait till Baptist, Methodist, Penticostal, Assemblies of God will all stand before the throne of grace and sing with confidence "Amazing Grace". I would not dare to diminish His grace and mercy.

We should be praying and lifting each other up and all of this heated discussion regarding tongues is not always beneficial.

May God richly bless you all and lead you into all truth.

May the Lord bless you and keep you, may the Lord make His face to shine upon you, May the Lord lift up His countenance upon you and give you peace.

 

Multimom,
2Tim.4:1 I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at his appearing and his kingdom;
2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine.
3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

Jude 3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.
4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.
2Tim.2:24 And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient,
25 In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth;
26 And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

Your post about "praying for one another" sounds pious. But prayer is not enough. Where there is wrong doctrine it needs to be rebuked. Look at the commission in 2Tim.4 that Paul gave to Timothy. Is it any different for us today. Do you withhold your tongue against such things as pornography, incest, abortion, crime of all sorts? Why would you then withhold your tongue against doctrinal sin which is just as grievous in God's eyes, and even more so; for false doctrine leads one to Hell, whereas one may more easily be redeemed from the sin of their crime.

Isa.58:1 Cry aloud, spare not, lift up thy voice like a trumpet, and show my people their transgression, and the house of Jacob their sins.
2 Yet they seek me daily, and delight to know my ways, as a nation that did righteousness, and forsook not the ordinance of their God: they ask of me the ordinances of justice; they take delight in approaching to God.

The prayers of the nation of Israel were not enough. Thus God commanded Isaiah to "Cry aloud, spare not, lift up thy voice like a trumpet, and show my people their transgression."

You have given us nice platitudes but nothing from the Word of God. You have given anecdotal experiences, but nothing from the Word of God. If your experiences (particularly tongues) are based on the Word of God, then demonstrate it by using the Word of God. A simple "I'll pray for you." won't work.

James 2:19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
Mat.7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
DHK

 

Multimom, just "ignore" some of the posters. They are so confused and really think that they know what they are talking about.

If I didn't know any better, I could be just as decieved. Keep in mind, as long as some are breathing, there is hope that they will see the light of God's Word.

MEE

 

Well... we have had some deaf people in our church and they all talk with there hands, but the funny thing is they all spoke in tongues. And i have told it before, we even had a man that had no voice box that spoke in tongues. Tell me how that happend? So dont give up just b/c they are deaf.

God bless

 

well its obvious that theese deaf people our demon possesed. They probably went deaf from listing to rock music and reading an niv bible.

sorry just kidding

 

"So dont give up just b/c they are deaf."

Brian (oneness), Look at what you just said. So if the deaf folk don't end up speaking in tongues they are lost?

Have you reduced your theology to one that says we must hold out hope that God will give us the gift of tongues so then we can be saved? or that tongues show that we are saved?

Please read what you wrote again and tell me that you don't really mean what is says.

Brian, you have a great name , But confused theology

In Christ,
Brian

 

This is why I stopped posting.

My first inclination was to harshly rebuke MEE for passing judgement on my salvation, and call her names.

I guess I'll just have to back down, though, and say "Thanks." She's made me realize that I'm not saved, and that as long as I don't speak in tongues, I have no hope of getting into heaven.

Thanks, MEE. Guess I'll go to the nudie bar tonight and contemplate the last six years I've completely wasted watching people I thought the Lord used me to speak to get saved, encouraged, and grow in Him.

 

I spent nearly 30 minutes composing a post in response to DHK and when I tried to add and italicised text it deleted the entire post and right now I just don't have the time to try to reconstruct it. Later on I will type the reply in word and cut and past it here. Can you spell F-R-U-S-T-R-A-T-I-O-N?????

I knew you could.

 

I agree MEE, You have demonstrated yourself to be one of the most confused posters on this board that I have ever witnessed. And you are very deceived with your Oneness theology. You have failed to demonstrate that tongues are a Biblical gift for today--from the Scriptures. You have failed to convince anyone that what you are speaking is from God and not from Satan.
DHK

 

I never said we should not discuss doctrine. What I did say that sometimes the argument of this doctrine is divisive. The scripture tells us. "Know those that cause strife and division among you and have no part with them, for they are false teachers and lead away the weak minded believer."

DHK you refer to "they will not endure sound doctrine." Within context these references state, I Timothy 4:1-5

I charge you in the presence of God and of Christ Jesus. Who is to judge the living and the dead and by his coming and His kingdom. Herald and preach the Word, keep your sense of urgency (stand by be and hand and ready). Whether the opportunity seems to be favorable or unfavorable, you as a preacher of the Word are to show people in what way their lives are wrong. And convince them, rebuking and correcting, warning and urging and encouraging them, being unflagging and inexhaustible in patience and teaching. For the time is coming when people will not tolerate (endure) sound and wholesome instruction, but having ears itching (for something pleasing and gratifying) they will gather to themselves on e teacher after another to a considerable number, chosen to satisfy their own liking and to foster the errors they hold. And will turn aside from hearing the truth and wander of into myths and fan-made fictions. As for you be calm and cool and steady, accept and suffer unflinchingly every hardship, do the work of an evangelist, fully perform all the duties of you ministry. For I am already about to be sacrificed the time of my release (from the body) is at hand and I will soon go free.

Now let's look carefully "show them the way their lives are wrong". The itching ears looking for something pleasing is those who want to live in sin. A good example is the homosexual who wants to say I am a Christian and there is nothing wrong with me being homosexual (despite the fact that God refers to it as an abomination.) This false doctrine that is referenced is a "doctrine" that wants to support a fleshly desire or "sin" as being acceptable again an example homosexuality, adultery etc. The something pleasing and gratifying has no bearing on speaking in tongues. It is directly speaking to the need to be comfortable in your own sin. Notice the version I used speaks of "wholesome instruction" The NIV Concordance shows the Greek word as meaning teaching. If you take this passage and go back even further you will see that Paul is admonishing Timothy to press on. Back in Chapter 3:12-13 He says, "Indeed all who delight in piety and are determined to live a devoted and godly life in Christ Jesus will meet with persecution (will be made to suffer because of their religious stand). But wicked men and imposters will go on from bad to worse, deceiving and leading astray others and being deceived and led astray themselves." Obviously by Paul's own words he delineates between the believer and the unbeliever. This does not refer to the doctrines of the faith. But the "teaching" of morality and what is pure and acceptable to God.

I do not believe that in order for one to be saved that he/she must speak in tongues. Now in I Corinthians 13, lets look at verses 9-10 "For our knowledge is fragmentary incomplete and imperfect and our prophecy (our teaching) is fragmentary (incomplete and imperfect). But when the complete and perfect (total) comes, the incomplete and imperfect will vanish away (become antiquated, void and superseded.)" As believers in Christ it is generally a consensus that ultimate perfection is only accomplished when we reach heaven. As we believe this then it is only logical that we would understand "but when the complete and perfect comes" to mean when we have reached our ultimate completion or perfection in heaven. So based on common grammatical usage, the next legitimate conclusion is that the time when prophecy, tongues and knowledge will pass away is when we enter heaven.

Isaiah 30:9-11 shows what will come (seeing that Isaiah is a prophet). For this is a rebellious people faithless and lying sons, children who will not hear the law and instructions of the Lord. Who virtually say to the seers by their conduct See not! and to the Prophets, Prophesy not to us what is right speak to us smooth things prophesy deceitful illusions Get out of the "true way" turn aside out of the path, cease holding up before us the Holy One of Israel.

You spoke of my "platitudes" and then proceeded to indicate that believing in the gift of tongues is an error in doctrine that will ultimately lead me to hell. Unfortunately that idea doesn't hold much water. The only doctrine (according to scripture) that will send me to hell is refusing to accept Jesus as my savior and refusing to accept the gift of salvation.

I can genuinely say that since changing from the Baptist Church and moving into the Charismatic faith that I have desired all the more to seek God. To search him and to follow him more closely. To walk "worthy of the calling" of which I have been called. I dig deeper, I read further, I pray more, I pray longer, I pray harder, I battle for my brother in the spirit realm through intercession. I seek to lead more to Christ, I am bolder in my confession, I am bolder in my witnessing. I seek to know Him in every conceivable way possible.

Would it be plausible to believe that the enemy would be so stupid as to delude me into a way that has cause me to seek Christ even further? Satan may be foolish but even he is not as ridiculous as to deceive me into believing in a way that causes me to read my Bible more and study the scripture more and pray more and witness more.

I believe that it is extremely dangerous to lift scripture out of context and use it as an argument against a doctrine that in no way determines salvation. It is also extremely dangerous to take the scripture out of context to force a belief that may be marginal at best. Cessationist doctrine is very difficult to prove in my opinion because the only reference to it ceasing is given in I Cor. 13. and that Chapter in now way is speaking directly of tongues. It's talking about how the Corinthians were behaving like children and bickering over tongues and prophesy and which gift is the greater(much as this thread it doing). That is why he comments about "being a child ......and becoming a man". Paul is saying , so what, you do all these things, when we get to heaven it will no longer be necessary and will stop, but you will be still be called into account regarding loving each other and treating each other with love.

Just a side note, Paul said "though I speak with the tongues of men (known languages) and of angels "(unknown languages) by grammar alone the implication is that it is possible for humans to speak in the tongues of angels. "and have not love; I am as a sounding brass or a tinkling cymbal." The whole of I Corinthians 13 is of love. Not the ceasing of tongues. If you study carefully the writings of Paul, you will find that he was very verbal in his discourse. He never summed up any doctrine in a single sentence. To take that one verse and assume that a whole doctrinal philosophy can be determined by only part of a sentence is erroneous and unwise. The Bible must be studied by the whole content of the word, and doctrine is established by the entirety of its teaching not a single phrase or grouping of an incomplete thought. To state that "these will cease" obviously an incomplete thought and making a doctrine of it is failing, in my opinion, to rightly divide the word of truth."

[ June 13, 2002, 12:27 AM: Message edited by: Multimom ]

 

Satan is deceiving and ALWAYS destructive. He promises so much and delivers so little. These "onenesses" come on here and literally mock our Lord, ridicule our beliefs, and then have the audacity to 'high-five-it' in psuedo-victory. Their teachings are subtle, which makes it even more dangerous. They distort the entire plan of salvation by denying the roles of the Father and the Son and the Holy Ghost. But go ahead, keep on posting and twisting the scriptures, and as you do, it just puts us one day closer.
"Even so, come, Lord Jesus".

 

I agree MEE, You have demonstrated yourself to be one of the most confused posters on this board that I have ever witnessed. And you are very deceived with your Oneness theology. You have failed to demonstrate that tongues are a Biblical gift for today--from the Scriptures. You have failed to convince anyone that what you are speaking is from God and not from Satan.
DHK[/QB][/QUOTE]

You think I'm confused and deceived? I don't think so!!! I did show you that "tongues" are for today---from the scriptures. I can't help it if you don't understand or believe the Word for what it says. You can't show me, from the Bible, that speaking in tongues "IS NOT" of God.

You may say it is not of God, but that is the only way that you can soothe your mind. DHK, I feel, IMO, that you fear that the "speaking in tongues" is of God and you don't know how to deal with it other than to say it is of the devil.

It came and still comes from heaven. Acts 2:2) And suddenly there came a sound from heaven....

Acts 2:39) For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

DHK, He is still calling and "the promise" is for you also.

BTW, stop attacking my character!!!

MEE

 

Multimom
quote:
"The itching ears looking for something pleasing is those who want to live in sin. A good example is the homosexual who wants to say I am a Christian and there is nothing wrong with me being homosexual (despite the fact that God refers to it as an abomination.)"

2 Tim. 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;
4 And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

---No, "itching ears" are referring to those who want to find some new thing, or doctrine to listen to, such as the Athenians were doing.

Acts 17:20 For thou bringest certain strange things to our ears: we would know therefore what these things mean.
21 (For all the Athenians and strangers which were there spent their time in nothing else, but either to tell, or to hear some new thing.)
---These verses do not speak of gross sin such as homosexuality, but of wanting to hear of some new strange doctrine. This is how people are carried off into cults, by listening to other people's strange ideas and doctrines. They have "itching ears." It says nothing of the gross sins of homosexuality that you have referred to.
Yes I notice your version uses the term "wholesome instruction," which is perfectly alright. But to equate that with the sin of homosexuality, and say that the lack thereof is speaking of homosexuality is reading into the text something that is not there. Paul specifically says: teachers, having itching ears, and they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and be turned to fables (not homosexuality). Where does the Bible equate homosexuality to a fable??

Concerning 2Tim.3:12,13, read the context. You say: "This does not refer to the doctrines of the faith. But the ?teaching? of morality and what is pure and acceptable to God."
Paul says in the verses immediately following:

2Tim.3:14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;
15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
---Obviously he is speaking of doctrine, the Scriptures, instruction in the faith, "Scriptures which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus."

Quote:
"I do not believe that in order for one to be saved that he/she must speak in tongues. Now in I Corinthians 13, lets look at verses 9-10 ?For our knowledge is fragmentary incomplete and imperfect and our prophecy (our teaching) is fragmentary (incomplete and imperfect). But when the complete and perfect (total) comes, the incomplete and imperfect will vanish away (become antiquated, void and superseded.) ? As believers in Christ it is generally a consensus that ultimate perfection is only accomplished when we reach heaven. As we believe this then it is only logical that we would understand ?but when the complete and perfect comes? to mean when we have reached our ultimate completion or perfection in heaven. So based on common grammatical usage, the next legitimate conclusion is that the time when prophecy, tongues and knowledge will pass away is when we enter heaven."

"It is generally a consensus that ultimate perfection is only accomplished when we reach heaven." Have you ever got that wrong! First, it is not even talking about "our" perfection. Let's look at verses 9 and 10, as you suggest.

1Cor.13:9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
---Paul said "we" know in part. He was referring to himself and the people at Corinth, or the first century Christians. Sorry to pop your bubble, but he wasn't referring to you. You have no claim to the pronoun "we." When Paul said "We know in part," he indeed was referring to the fact that their knowledge was incomplete. The perfect or complete would come in the future. But what was he speaking of? They knew in part because they only had part of the Bible--the Old Testament, and maybe one or two books of the New Testament. The rest of the New Testament had not been written yet. Thus they knew in part. These gifts, mentioned in verse 8 (prophesying, tongues, and knowledge), were temporary gifts that ceased at the end of the first century, when the Word of God was complete or made perfect with the completion of the Book of Revelation. The word "knowledge" speaking of the "gift of knowledge," is revelatory knowledge, not common knowledge. It was a gift of the Spirit given at that time that ceased with the completion of the Word of God.
"When that which is perfect is come" The word "that" in the Greek is a neuter pronoun. It cannot refer to Jesus Christ. It does not refer to anything masculine. It refers to the Word of God which is neutral in its gender. We have a perfect, completed Word today, and if any man adds to it, God shall add to him all the plagues that are written in it. The revelation of God is closed. God has chosen to reveal Himself in these days through His Word. Everything that we need to know about God is contained in the pages of the Word of God. We need no other source. The gifts of the Spirit ceased at the end of the first century because they were no longer needed. The Word of God had been perfected or completed.

Quote:
"So based on common grammatical usage, the next legitimate conclusion is that the time when prophecy, tongues and knowledge will pass away is when we enter heaven."
---So based on common grammatical usage, you're conclusions are wrong.
DHK

 

I'm not sure what's the worse thought: That my comments weren't acknowledged by MEE at all, or that she doesn't seem to care that I've decided to reject it all.

Perhaps I'll just contemplate it over the ol' brewski as I sit stage-side...now where did I leave that bundle of dollar bills?....

 

1Cor.1421 In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord.
22 Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.

Tongues are for a sign to the unbelieving Jew. How many unbelieving Jews are present when you speak in tongues? None? Then it is not for today
is it?
DHK[/QB][/QUOTE]

Just for the Jew? DHK, ever read Acts 10? Corneilius was a 'GENTILE.' Acts19:45-48)
45)And they of the circumcision (JEWS) which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the "GENTILES" also was poured out the gift of the HOLY GHOST.

46) For they HEARD THEM (Gentiles) SPEAK
WITH TONGUES, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,

47) Can any man forbid water that these should not be baptized, which have received
the Holy Ghost as well as we? (Jews)

48) And he commanded them (GENTILES) to be baptized in the NAME of the Lord.
Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.

Yes, it started with the Jews, but what the Jews rejected, God gave to us GENTILES! It's still for everyone whether one believes it or not.

MEE

 

MEE, you do NOT have the same thing they had at the day of Pentacost. They spoke in languages that were UNDERSTOOD by the crowd. Do you?

IN CHRIST
SUSAN

 

There are two types of tongues in the New Testament:

1. a private heavenly language

2. a language spoken whereby all audience members heard the speakers in their own language

Whether tongues are for today or not is entirely another question that must be addressed apart from any recognition of the above classification / categorization.

Are tongues for today? I believe there are possibly a few people who may have experienced a genuine occurrence of tongues. I also believe there may be individuals who have experienced legitimate healing and other events that would be commonly called miraculous, i.e. dreams, visions etc. But I don't believe there is a systematic dispensation of tongues or the miraculous the way I've heard it presented by some Pentecostal theology.

I believe that there are far deeper and meaningful spiritual experiences than tongues that are not linked to the miraculous or the charismatic.

The scripture most often quoted to support a cessation of the gifts (I Cor. 13:13) is, I think, really meant to illustrate that the miraculous and charismatic may occur, but are not the ultimate experience - faith, hope and love are a deeper currency.

The miraculous, including the charismatic may occur, but will be limited in time, and will fade and cease - to give way to a more enduring type of faith. I think this is the point of the I Corinthians 13:13 verse.

As an illustration, consider John the Baptist. Jesus said of John that he was the greatest prophet to have arisen among men, yet John, at least to the extent that it is recorded, did not perform a single 'miracle'.

I think that tongues as well as other miraculous events including the charismatic may occur today on an individual basis depending on an individual believers walk, closeness to the Lord, holiness, and the sovereignty of God. Whether such events continue or not throughout an individuals life depends entirely upon the sovereignty of God and the believers walk.

I think tongues and/or other charismatic gifts must and ultimately do give way to an enduring maturity, to an enduring faith, hope and love which are greater.

So my view doesn't quite fit as far as the average Pentecostal charismatic theology is concerned, nor does it fit with the cessationist view.

[ June 13, 2002, 12:00 AM: Message edited by: Baptist Vine ]

 

Your ideas on the subject of tongues are all based on a faulty premise: that there are two types of tongues in the New Testament. There is only one Biblical gift of tongues--that of speaking in a language unknown to the one speaking it, but known to one or more of the hearers.
Tongues is NOT a private heavenly language. It was never meant to be private in any manner whatsoever. It was a gift given to edify the church. It was given for the church's benefit, not the individual's benefit. Paul rebukes those who try to use the gift for their own selfish purposes.

1Cor.14:2 For he that speaketh in an unknown tongue speaketh not unto men, but unto God: for no man understandeth him; howbeit in the spirit he speaketh mysteries.
3 But he that prophesieth speaketh unto men to edification, and exhortation, and comfort.
4 He that speaketh in an unknown tongue edifieth himself; but he that prophesieth edifieth the church.
--Contrary to the belief of some, these verses are a stinging rebuke by Paul. They were not to speak in tongues because tongues do not edify the church.
DHK