But how is the definition I gave regarding "hardening" inconsistent with that of Total Depravity? The passage I presented show that men "grow hardened" "otherwise they might see, hear understand and respond." How do you explain that?
We both agree with Jesus on this, at least we think we do, so such incendiary comments aren't really necessary.
No one can believe a message they have yet to hear, right? "How can they believe unless someone preaches?"
In Romans 6 the gospel is being hidden from the world (Israel in particular and hasn't been sent to the Gentiles yet). The gospel hasn't been sent to the world yet. It is being hidden in parables lest they repent (Mk 4; Matt 13 etc), and Jesus is warning the disciple to keep things quite because it is not the proper time. Israel is being sent a "spirit of stupor" and "hardened in their rebellion" (Jn 12:39-41) which is why they can't believe, (which, btw, is NOT the universal condition of all men from birth).
So, Jesus is right. NO ONE CAN come to him unless the father has granted it. The apostles, the remnant of Israel, have been handpicked and reserved from the hardening process so that they can be the messengers to the rest of the world. The rest of Israel cannot come to faith yet because they are being blinded in their rebellion so as to accomplish the crucifixion and to allow for the ingrafting of the Gentiles. I know this is hard to see and understand when you have only read these passages from the Calvinistic perspective but I assure you this is the view that believers have held to long before Augustine even came along. I just ask you to put down the debate banner and at least attempt to understand this perspective before you dismiss it and just try to "win" a debate. thanks
Total Depravity = Hardening?
Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Skandelon, Feb 14, 2011.
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Iconoclast Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
Skandelon, I am not sure that you meant to post this ,this way did you?
men cannot believe unless they are sheep.
what you describe in this paragraph [the parables]...was before the cross.
you do not see the apostles using parabolic language
Jesus was judging apostate Israel.
You are correct about the saved remnant in Israel...i can agree there.
These issues are a larger discussion than the OP was speaking about. -
Calvinism teaches, in accordance with Scripture, that men possess a natural knowledge of God and themselves, but that it is corrupted partly by ignorance and partly by malice.
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IOW, you agree but disagree. First, you make a completely false assertion about the teaching of Calvinism, and when you're corrected you say you agree but disagree.
The fact of the matter is you don't know what you believe, but I can tell you. You believe that those who have chosen Christ are better people than those who haven't. At the very least, you cannot believe their sin is as great as those who have, in your notion of the concept, been "hardened."
You believe YOU are better.
Not judgin'—just sayin'. -
And I suppose I could play the childish game of back and forth and claim you think your better because you think God chose you over most others...
I suppose you think your better because you understand God and salvation better than me, uh? -
My doctrine precludes that very notion, but it's essential for yours.
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No. It's very simple. In the view you extol here, men are hardened only after they've sinned enough to earn that punishment. Up to that time they are free to choose the Gospel.
Their choice of the Gospel is 100% non-compulsory. IOW God hasn't done one thing inside the individual who chooses that He hasn't done in one who hasn't chosen. That leaves only one possibility—those who choose the Gospel have more love for it than those who don't, and that love must be an inherent, innate quality.
Bottom line, those who choose are inherently better than those who don't. There is no other possible conclusion. -
Iconoclast Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
you said;
The gospel was known in the OT also,although most men rejected it. -
don't pretend you avoid this same accusation...
Plus, doesn't scripture say "Well done good and faithful servant" for the very reason that they chose rightly? Doesn't the whole reward/punishment system rely on the fact that some do better than others?
If any wants to boast, they should boast that they know and understand God, because His love is constant, and He does what is just and right!!! -
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Iconoclast Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
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I'm not interested. Have a great day. -
Note that the sheep "heard" before they believed; before they actually became "sheep." -
*Unless you think a child rapist is worse than one who rapes Christ's bride, but then you'd be making Paul a liar. He wasn't really the chief of sinners, it was just his low self-esteem that made him say that. -
Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
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Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
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