You keep saying that, "straw man"? BUT, why don't you stop and think what you are saying? You are trying to show that "regeneration" is different from being "born again", but, as I have shown the Greek word mean that that. If, as you say a person is "born again" which enables them to repent, upon which they are forgiven, and this brings the NEW BIRTH, which is "born again". This makes it TWICE!
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Total Depravity vs Free Will
- Thread starter tyndale1946
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You keep saying that, "straw man"? BUT, why don't you stop and think what you are saying? You are trying to show that "regeneration" is different from being "born again", but, as I have shown the Greek word mean that that. If, as you say a person is "born again" which enables them to repent, upon which they are forgiven, and this brings the NEW BIRTH, which is "born again". This makes it TWICE!
Straw man. Nobody has suggested being born again twice.
You are right. Your straw man is rubbish.
Don't try to deflect by changing the subject. Everybody knows the two words are synonymous.
I have thought about what I say. For over 70 years. Probably since long before you were born.
Another straw man. I have made so such claim.
Wrong again. The sinner is regenerated by the Grace of God which enables him to believe, repent, and obey.
Let's use the illustration Jesus used on Nicodemus. The physical birth compared to the spiritual birth.
What did you do that resulted in your being born? (Hint: The correct answer is "nothing.") You saw your parents and believed they would care for you. Was that before or after you were born. You saw your parents and obeyed them. Before or after you were born?
What did you do that resulted in your being born again? (Hint: The correct answer is "nothing.") Did you believe in Jesus before or after you were born again? Did you obey Jesus before or after you were born.
Try to be logically consistent.
Show me where in the Bible it says that when a person is CONVICTED by the Holy Spirit of their sins, which causes them to seek the Lord for forgiveness, this is "regeneration"? This words are not synonymous, BUT THE SAME THING. To be REGENERATED is to be BRON AGAIN. SAME event, not TWO! Forget the "reformed" position and accept the Bible. You are not suggesting, but actually SAYING this, which you cannot admit to, because it is UNBIBLICAL!
Spiritual rebirth has NOTHING to do with human birth! Jesus was telling Nicodemus, that as he was born NATURALLY he must also be born SPIRITUALLY. Again you don't seem to get it, Once the sinner has been REGENERATED, which Titus 3 says is BORN AGAIN, they are THEN saved. So it CANNOT be so that they can then call on the Lord. This is not in the Bible!
We all know that.
Nobody has claimed it is two.
I am not reformed.
I do accept the bible. You might want to be careful about making false accusations.
Another empty straw man. Either quote me where I said a person has to be born again twice, or withdraw your false claim and apologize.
If you are not willing to be honest this discussion cannot continue.
Nothing more to say on this...Good night from England
So, was Jesus wrong to use one to illustrate the other?
Oh, so Jesus did use one to illustrate the other, contrary to you somewhat confused statement above.
The saved can't call on the Lord? Why not?
Sure it is. It is in Titus 3:5 and a lot of other places.
My comment on this whole thread is this. I used to be an ardent anti-Calvinist. This was primarily because I couldn't accept the doctrine of limited atonement. But the question of predestination versus free will, which is really the underlying question, comes down to whether God simply has fore-knowledge or whether He predestines those who are to be saved. I never understood the issue of "double predestination" because if you are not predestined to be saved then you are predestined to be damned to Hell. I'm not aware of any other alternative.
I've come to believe that both predestination and free will are correct. This sounds impossible to us but I consider it to be a mystery that only God can understand. The important thing is we must act as if we have free will to accept or reject the Holy Spirit's call to accept Christ as our Lord and Savior. The rest is an interesting theologiocal point but not important to us.
I've come to believe that both predestination and free will are correct. This sounds impossible to us but I consider it to be a mystery that only God can understand. The important thing is we must act as if we have free will to accept or reject the Holy Spirit's call to accept Christ as our Lord and Savior. The rest is an interesting theologiocal point but not important to us.
But in the end it's not about theology. It's all about Jesus, my Lord and Savior! I had the opportunity to sing in the back-up choir for this great Christian song. We didn't have Michael English but had a great local Atlanta tenor singing. I broke into tears when he hit the part about walking down the streets of Heaven. Glory be to the Lord God almighty!
A BIG amen Mr Cassidy. You got it to a jot and tittle!!!!!
As always T.C. you nailed it again!... Your Brother in Christ... Brother Glen
And here we see the wily semi-pelagian in his natural environment....[emoji41]
TULIP and Reformed Theology: Total Depravity
FROM R.C. Sproul Mar 25, 2017 Category: Articles
TULIP and Reformed Theology: Total Depravity
The doctrine of total depravity reflects the Reformed viewpoint of original sin. That term—original sin—is often misunderstood in the popular arena. Some people assume that the term original sin must refer to the first sin—the original transgression that we’ve all copied in many different ways in our own lives, that is, the first sin of Adam and Eve. But that’s not what original sin has referred to historically in the church. Rather, the doctrine of original sin defines the consequences to the human race because of that first sin.
Virtually every church historically that has a creed or a confession has agreed that something very serious happened to the human race as a result of the first sin—that first sin resulted in original sin. That is, as a result of the sin of Adam and Eve, the entire human race fell, and our nature as human beings since the fall has been influenced by the power of evil. As David declared in the Old Testament, “Oh, God, I was born in sin, and in sin did my mother conceive me” (Ps. 51:5). He was not saying that it was sinful for his mother to have borne children; neither was he saying that he had done something evil by being born. Rather, he was acknowledging the human condition of fallenness—that condition that was part of the experience of his parents, a condition that he himself brought into this world. Therefore, original sin has to do with the fallen nature of mankind. The idea is that we are not sinners because we sin, but that we sin because we are sinners.
In the Reformed tradition, total depravity does not mean utter depravity. We often use the term total as a synonym for utter or for completely, so the notion of total depravity conjures up the idea that every human being is as bad as that person could possibly be. You might think of an archfiend of history such as Adolf Hitler and say there was absolutely no redeeming virtue in the man, but I suspect that he had some affection for his mother. As wicked as Hitler was, we can still conceive of ways in which he could have been even more wicked than he actually was. So the idea of totalin total depravity doesn’t mean that all human beings are as wicked as they can possibly be. It means that the fall was so serious that it affects the whole person. The fallenness that captures and grips our human nature affects our bodies; that’s why we become ill and die. It affects our minds and our thinking; we still have the capacity to think, but the Bible says the mind has become darkened and weakened. The will of man is no longer in its pristine state of moral power. The will, according to the New Testament, is now in bondage. We are enslaved to the evil impulses and desires of our hearts. The body, the mind, the will, the spirit—indeed, the whole person—have been infected by the power of sin.
I like to replace the term total depravity with my favorite designation, which is radical corruption. Ironically, the word radical has its roots in the Latin word for “root,” which is radix, and it can be translated root or core. The term radical has to do with something that permeates to the core of a thing. It’s not something that is tangential or superficial, lying on the surface. The Reformed view is that the effects of the fall extend or penetrate to the core of our being.
FROM R.C. Sproul Mar 25, 2017 Category: Articles
TULIP and Reformed Theology: Total Depravity
The doctrine of total depravity reflects the Reformed viewpoint of original sin. That term—original sin—is often misunderstood in the popular arena. Some people assume that the term original sin must refer to the first sin—the original transgression that we’ve all copied in many different ways in our own lives, that is, the first sin of Adam and Eve. But that’s not what original sin has referred to historically in the church. Rather, the doctrine of original sin defines the consequences to the human race because of that first sin.
Virtually every church historically that has a creed or a confession has agreed that something very serious happened to the human race as a result of the first sin—that first sin resulted in original sin. That is, as a result of the sin of Adam and Eve, the entire human race fell, and our nature as human beings since the fall has been influenced by the power of evil. As David declared in the Old Testament, “Oh, God, I was born in sin, and in sin did my mother conceive me” (Ps. 51:5). He was not saying that it was sinful for his mother to have borne children; neither was he saying that he had done something evil by being born. Rather, he was acknowledging the human condition of fallenness—that condition that was part of the experience of his parents, a condition that he himself brought into this world. Therefore, original sin has to do with the fallen nature of mankind. The idea is that we are not sinners because we sin, but that we sin because we are sinners.
In the Reformed tradition, total depravity does not mean utter depravity. We often use the term total as a synonym for utter or for completely, so the notion of total depravity conjures up the idea that every human being is as bad as that person could possibly be. You might think of an archfiend of history such as Adolf Hitler and say there was absolutely no redeeming virtue in the man, but I suspect that he had some affection for his mother. As wicked as Hitler was, we can still conceive of ways in which he could have been even more wicked than he actually was. So the idea of totalin total depravity doesn’t mean that all human beings are as wicked as they can possibly be. It means that the fall was so serious that it affects the whole person. The fallenness that captures and grips our human nature affects our bodies; that’s why we become ill and die. It affects our minds and our thinking; we still have the capacity to think, but the Bible says the mind has become darkened and weakened. The will of man is no longer in its pristine state of moral power. The will, according to the New Testament, is now in bondage. We are enslaved to the evil impulses and desires of our hearts. The body, the mind, the will, the spirit—indeed, the whole person—have been infected by the power of sin.
I like to replace the term total depravity with my favorite designation, which is radical corruption. Ironically, the word radical has its roots in the Latin word for “root,” which is radix, and it can be translated root or core. The term radical has to do with something that permeates to the core of a thing. It’s not something that is tangential or superficial, lying on the surface. The Reformed view is that the effects of the fall extend or penetrate to the core of our being.
Faith is a fruit of the spirit and received immediately and strengthened when exercised
I believe, due to our limitations in time, that, to us, it seems simultaneous.
And you former psych teacher is wrong. I have worked ~ 10 years in a hospital that has a floor dedicated to these ppl with mental illnesses. They are legit. They have chemical imbalances that cause them to go off. But your psych teacher is way off on that statement.
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Romans 12:3, Hebrews 12:2, John 6:30, Ephesians 1:13, 1 Corinthians 1:18-21, Titus 3
Mr Cassidy, lets try this again, you say, "The sinner is regenerated by the Grace of God which enables him to believe, repent, and obey". As I have already said, the Greek word for "regenerated" is "παλιγγενεσία", which is from "πάλιν and γένεσις", that is, "again and birth". BORN AGAIN. Now, simply replace "regeneration" in your sentence with "born-again" and you will see what I mean. "The sinner is born-again by the Grace of God which enables him to believe, repent, and obey". Now, if the sinner is "born-again", FIRST, which enables them to "believe, repent and obey", which then saves them, which is BORN AGAIN, and NONE can be "born again" BEFORE they repent! In John 3:7, Jesus says, "γεννηθῆναι ἄνωθεν", which literally means, "born from ABOVE", not "again". The correct term for "born-again", is that which Paul uses in Titus 3, "παλιγγενεσία", which is not what Jesus says. There is not ONE text in the entire Bible to support anyone being born-again and then calling on the Lord to repent, at which time they are born-again! Do you get it?
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