The Bible teaches man is a sinner by nature as a result of Adam's transgression. All men have sinned as a result of Adam's sin.
[Ps. 51:5] Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.
[Rom. 5:12] Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
While it is true no man comes to Jesus unless drawn by the Father [John 6:44], he has to respond according to his own will. Spiritual death does not mean absolute bondage of the will, just as Christians being dead to sin are not completely incapable of sinning.
[Rom. 6:2] God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
Any Christian will testify to the fact he or she sins and comes short of the glory of God every day. Christians are dead to sin, but still sin. If Christians who are "dead to sin" still sin, why would any one say sinners who are "dead in trespasses and sins" will not come to Jesus unless they're dragged or forced? Is sinners' deadness to spiritual things any more absolute than the Christians’ deadness to sin who still commits sin? To be spiritually dead means to be separated from God.
Through His precious blood, Aaron
Total Depravity
Discussion in '2000-02 Archive' started by Baptist 4 the Lamb, Mar 26, 2002.
Page 1 of 2
-
-
IMHO, to be spiritually dead means to be spiritually dead. Dead men don't respond. Unless, like Lazarus, the Savior commands them to come to life --that's not exactly dragging and forcing,is it?
-
Aaron, you might be interested in previous discussion of this topic found on "The T in the Tulip Doctrine."
-
Aaron,
It'll be interesting to see you try to refute something such as Calvinism that is so plainly taught in God's word.
By His grace, Christopher -
tyndale1946 Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
If you don't believe in Total Depravity you should talk to Brother Saul/Paul as he was a firm believer and wrote many letters about it!... Do you honestly think we would claim a doctrine we couldn't defend?... Brother Glen
-
You can defend anything as long as you get to determine what parts of the Bible are to be taken at face value and what parts are to be 'adjusted' so that you can give it its proper meaning. ;)
I say that in jest, but also in truth.
Just because we are inbondaged to sin does not mean we have no understanding about what is correct. Just as those who have formally accepted Jesus Christ as lord are inslaved to sin, so is everyone else. Just as Christians know what is right, yet don't always carry it out, so can others. Just look at what Paul says in Romans 2.
Oops, I forgot, that is one of those parts that doesn't really mean what it appears to be saying. -
Lamb:
I wish to repond to the first "Petal" of Calvinism. The doctrine of Calvinism teaches man is born a sinner. He is inclined to no good thing because he is depraved. What do the scriptures teach about this doctrine?
1. God made men right. Eccl.7:29. Solomon said, behold this only have I found, that God made man upright but they have sought out many inventions.
2 David Identifies when man sins.( Psalms 58:3). It is when they have cognitive ability in this passage it is verbal communication that indicates such.
3.Ezekiel teaches us that sin is an act.( Ezekiel 18:4). It is man consciously violating God's Law.
4. Jesus contradicts Toyal depravity.( Lk. 18:16). Jesus said," Suffer the little children to come unto me and forbid them not for of such is the Kingdom of Heaven. Calvinistic doctrine would change it to read suffer the little DEVILS to come unto me.
5. Jesus desires men to become as little children. ( Mat.18:3). Man will not inherit Heaven unless they do. Surely, Jesus is not teaching to be like the little "devils." I will look at the second petal next time.
Frank -
-
Some passages that contradict what you are saying is here listed:
Rom 3:10-17; Rom 8:1-13; Eph 2:1-3 -
Total depravity can be taught to uninformed people who are happy to look only at some verses. Yes, all sinners are responsible for their Adamic sin and sins of commission.
The Image of God was not fully lost by Adam's fall in the garden. Man to a much lesser extent than God still has human intelligence, a conscience, freedom of the will and has the capability to be convicted of his or her sinful ways. If the Image of God were totally lost to humankind, not even God could awaken a human being to his or her need of Christ. Without intelligence, conscience, and will--that body would not be called a human being.
An interesting and neglected study for Calvinists is found in John 1:9. Dr. Edwin A. Blum says, 'Christ give light to every man. This does not mean universal salvation, or general revelation or even inner illumination. Instead, it means that Christ as the Light shines {protizei} on each person either in salvation or in illuminating him with regard to his sin and coming judgment.'
Raymond E. Brown offers these ideas. 'Some think that this does not mean the light of revelation, but the spotlight of judgment, the pitiless, all-revealing light is not to be avoided. If John the Baptist witness was for all men, the sphere of enlightenment from the real Light can scarcely be less.'
Regards,
Dr. Berrian -
YOu completely ignore the question Ray. Scripture is explicit and without qualification: There is none who understands; there is none who seeks God; all are dead in trespasses and sins. Yet your position seems to deny this. You must reconcile these two passages.
Simply citing it doesn't help and your citations do not really help much either since they don't make your point, IMO. Explain how, if Christ gave light to everyone, why no one understands.
Probably what is in view here is the objective revelation of Christ that came into the world. His manifestation is plain for all to see. However, most reject it because they love the darkness (John 3:19-20). Why do they love the darkness? Because their deeds are evil -- they are spiritually dead (Rom 3:10-17; Eph 2:1-3).
And I think Raymond E. Brown is a Catholic is he not? If it is the Raymond Brown I am thinking of, he was regularly published the Catholic Quarterly and I found out the hard way when I cited him in a paper as a representative of the Evangelical position on hermeneutics.
[ April 12, 2002, 09:41 AM: Message edited by: Pastor Larry ] -
Larry:
You have made several unsubstantiatied assertions in your post about total depravity.
1. All men are enslaved in sin. You site Romans 3:10-12 and Romans 6:6,7. Romans 3:12 indicates that those who HAVE GONE OUT OF THE WAY have been enslaved to sin. This reference goes back to the old testament and refers to the children of Israel who chose other gods rather than God. They made a CHOICE as the phrase " ALL GONE OUT OF THE WAY" indicates. One must be in the Way to go out of the way. Romans 6 is written as a reminder to the Christians in Rome about How they became Christians and what it meant. Romans 6: 1-3 dicusses,again , THEIR CHOICE. Man freely chooses to sin and to follow in Faith the teachings of Christ. In Romans 6: 17,18, the Bible says," But God be thanked you were the servants of sin, but( Here is the choice made)you have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine delivered you and being made free from sin ye became the servants of righteousness." This is the same language used in Hebrews 5:8,9, where Jesus OBEYED. He made a choice.
2. David was conceived in a sinful state before cognitive ability. NO PROOF. The Bible says this about your unsubstantiated assertion.Psalms 51:3 has the similar meaning as Job 31:18. Job said he had cared for widows from the womb. Surely, you are not going to assert that as an infant Job cared for widows? This phrase simply means human beings commence sinful activities at an early age. ( See Gen.8:21).
3. Sin is more than just transgressing law. NO PROOF. I Jn. 3:4 defines sin as the transgression law. This harmonizes with Ezekiel 18:4.
4. Total depravity requires one to be born in sin. This is what it is and how you have argued.Jesus teaches that accountable men( context of Lk. 18:16) become innocent or sinless like little children. Total depravity will not allow this. Therefore, The Calvinist would have to change what Christ said to fit his doctrine.THOSE WHO KN0W RIGHT AND WRONG ARE TO become converted and be like children.If Children are born in sin they are lost and doomed to hell.Are You now asserting that Jesus wants men to convert and be like children to go to HELL? ( LK. 18:16,Mat. 18:3).
Frank -
Scripture is clear – there is not one good thing man. He is utterly and totally sinful and unrighteousness before God. Because of his depravity he cannot and will not come to Christ. He does not want to come to Christ.
It is the words of Christ himself in John 6 that show that the Calvinist understanding of Scripture is proper. It is you that has contradicted the teaching of Christ. -
Pastor Larry,
I agree with much of what you said about sinners not being able to come to Christ. I think also we agree, that the Holy Spirit is very active in their lives after they have heard the Gospel truth. Without His ministry toward sinners they will not realize the need to yield to Him.
Raymond E. Brown, S.S. is the author of the "The Anchor Bible Commentary." I cited him also in my 230 page dissertation. He is definitely a Catholic theologian and has some true and spiritual statements to make, just like Calvin and Arminius offered some good truths.
Dr. Berrian -
Larry:
You simply ignored the arguements. Romans 3:23 simply states what I have previously posted. Men choose to sin, all men . (Romans 3:23). Yes, that includes all men. It does not say that all men are born and enslaved by sin in Romans 3:23? If so, Where? There is a difference so stated in Romans 6:17,18. The same language used in Psalms 51:5 as in Job 31:18. Did Job take care of widows as an infant? The context of both passages uses the same phrase with the with an active effect being present at the womb. One effect, as you assert, is Sin the other is taking care of widows.
I Jn. 3:4 states sin IS THE TRANSGRESSION OF LAW. You ignore the inspired definition. You have claimed there is something else inclusive in sin. If so, WHAT IS IT? And WHERE DOES GOD SO STATE?
Larry, people sin because they violate law.( I Jn. 3:4).Paul by inspiration says,"I had not known sin except the law said Thou shalt not covet." Paul learned about sin by the definition of law.
Luke 18:16 and Mat. 18:3 are spoken to adults as they are instructed to be converted to be come like little children. If children are born in sin, then Jesus is instructing them to become sinners. Jesus affirms that men are to become like children also in Jn. 3:3-5 in reference to being born again. Paul affirms when we are converted we are new creatures.(II Cor 5:7). The biblical evidence simply does not support your position.
Frank -
Frank,
Ps 51:5 ubchmi’ yechmatini imi
As you can see from the transliterations, they do not use the same language. The only thing the same is “imi” – my mother. The point of the passage in Job is Job’s lifelong compassionate treatment of widows and orphans. “From my youth” is parallel with “from my mother’s womb.” It obviously refers to a lifelong pursuit. It is wholly unrelated to the sin issue addressed in Ps 51:5 where a completely different construct is used in a different text.
-
Larry:
Romans 6:17,18 refers to a choice men make. men have two choices serve God or evil. ( Joshua 24:15, Mat. 6:24, John 8:44,45.) Men CHOOSE TO SIN. This is the correct Biblical answer,your uninspired expansion not withstanding.
2.Infants are in their youth.(Job31:18). If not when does one cease to be in his youth? Job 31:18 does read and I quote" and I have guided her from my mother's womb." The effect is different Sin (Psalms 51)and caring for widows (Job 31:18) but the time, WHEN, is the same infant from the womb.
Can one begin a lifelong pursuit to take care of widows from the womb( Infant).
3. Strong and Erickson are not inspired. Where in the inspired volume is your assertion for and "expanded definiton of sin."
4. In Mat and Luke, the context is talking about getting into the kingdom. There must be a CONVERSION.( Mat. 18:3). If children are born in sin as Calvinism so states,Jesus is indeed instructing adults to become like children , in the case of Calvinism, it would be to become sinners. Children are sinless and innocent and yes, humble. I do not miss the point.
Calvinism does by teaching total depravity.
Furthermore, if all are born in sin,( CALVINISM) then there is no conversion, as those to whom he is speaking are sinners as well as the children he uses to teach this lesson. There would be no new birth.( Jn. 3:3-5).
Frank -
-
Larry:
You have asserted that Psalms 51:5 teaches total depravity. You do so in the face of biblical evidence that teaches such is not the case. ( I Jn.3:4,Romans 7:7,Romans 4:15, Ezekiel 18:4,II Jn.9,10, Jude 4, II Tim.4:3, Deut. 30 :15-18).
Is is strange that you make such an assertion, yet you do not know the biblical definiton of that which you claim all men are born in... SIN. You then site strong and erickson instead of biblical evidence for the definition of sin.
As for the text of Mat. 18:3 and Luke 18:16, I have simply made IMPLICATIONS based on total depravity and original sin. You do not like it, but neither would I if I had to uphold such false teaching with a passage that does not state the doctrine. you assert it does, but the rest of the evidence teaches you are in error.
Men choose to sin and do right of their own free will.( Mat. 7:21-26).
Frank -
You and I have been through this enough. You have had opportunity to make your points and I have responded to them. Those reading along have the gyst of both arguments and can make their decisions based on what has been said. We will discontinue this line of discussion. Make your last comments and move on to another topic.
Page 1 of 2