Huh? First it's a choice, and now it's a question? I never thought of "If you fall off the Empire State Building you'll go splat" as a question.
That's what God says in Deuteronomy. If you do this, I'll bless you. If you do that, I'll curse you.
If you keep reading, you'll see that God then says (and I paraphrase), "You're going to do that, and then I'm going to curse you. Then I'm going to circumsize your hearts so that you can love me and live."
If I had to interpret the above in terms of free will, it sounds a lot to me like God is saying, "I'm going to leave it up to your so-called free-will so you can see for yourself that you have no power but to choose wrong. And when I'm done making that point, I'll change your hearts so that you can live."
There you have a reasonably clear offer of a choice, spelled-out consequences, the action on the part of man, but a conspicuous absense of free will. Because as I've said before, if the will can do no good without the grace of God, then the will is not free.
Total Depravity
Discussion in '2003 Archive' started by Primitive Baptist, Dec 25, 2002.
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Pastor Larry,
With all due respect I probably have had more formal instruction in Calvinistic and Arminian theology than you, because I have studied in both kinds of seminaries. I had a Calvinistic theology professor try to tell us that God was the author of sin. I too, have been through the system.
Ray -
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Because it's all about the recipitant, all seminaries can do is give you knowledge, it's up to you to imbibe it.
And, most likely, you probably ignored all the Calvinistic teachings...
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IF is not a question, it starts a conditional.
"If you beleive, you will be saved"
Which is true, but it does not say that man has the ability to choose and will do so on his own.
What If is a hypothetical question and is to NEVER be used in theological debates. -
Now here is an "if" that is made a question....
If the scripture so often addresses itself to those who have ears to hear..... would that not seem to imply there are those who don't have ears to hear?
Second question (No if).... How would you present a logical argument to one who does not have ears to hear?
I have written many, many, many more posts to this board than I will ever be credited with.... because after finishing the post..... I choose not to use the add reply button..... While the truth has set some of you free it really makes the rest quite mad. -
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Yelsew,
See, you didn't hear a word I said..... -
The Travelin Minstrel,
Two things stand out in my mind that I learned at the Five Point seminary. Number one: I learned more about eternal security that I already believed; and number two: I learned about God's evaluation of our work accomplished in His Name while here on earth. {I Corinthians 3:9-15} These were the positive things that I remember. -
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IMO, there’s nothing here that challenges Calvinism’s Total Depravity. Nor is there anything supporting it. Before entering this forum, everyone has made a choice about the subject and locked themselves into their view. I doubt there’s anything that can be said to change their mind. It’s completely useless to argue over scripture or the concepts themselves in this case. So what has been accomplished here? Has anyone learned anything? I have. I’ve learned that most are not interested in rethinking their theology. Growth will not occur without being inquisitive about God. Do we really think we understand the scriptures? Are we certain we’re interpreting them correctly? Better take another look. Better make sure you have the right disposition. The right frame of mind. The right intention. The right goal. If the result is a determination to tell everyone you’re right and their wrong, have you really understood the scriptures?
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The only effective way to debate theological issues is to examine particular verses. When particular verses are mentioned, the people scatter. As soon as a particular verse is mentioned that cannot be explained according to one's theological position, that person disappears or posts nonsense. With some people on this board, the Bible could be used to prove anything. I think people need to come to grips with themselves and understand what they are arguing against before they start posting things that have nothing to do with the issue at hand. I think that even though people know when they're posting nonsense, they post it anyway. Now, for all the non-Calvinists that insist that Total Depravity is false, what does 1 Corinthians 2:14 mean?
"But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned."
Please notice that I did not ask for any other verses or what they mean, but what does THIS verse mean???
[ January 13, 2003, 07:01 PM: Message edited by: Primitive Baptist ] -
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To illustrate why you need context, I'll argue in favor of something I do not believe it means: It could mean that man has a split personality -- part spiritual and part natural (the flesh). The natural cannot discern the things of the Spirit of God, but the spiritual can. So if one is willing to submit to one's spiritual side, one can then discern the things of the Spirit of God, because one is exercising their ability of spiritual discernment.
Now I don't believe the above at all, but IMO it COULD mean the above if you take it alone. I can't demonstrate that it's wrong except by putting your verse in context with other verses (particularly those that lead up to the one you cited). -
Virtually all that distinguishes man from animals, is spirit. So, everything of man hinges on spirit. So it matters much who man submits to, hense the struggle between good and evil.
If man has no choice regarding who he submits too, as Calvinism's Total Depravity suggests, Satan has already won. Everyone who posts here would agree that God does not force himself on humanity, else there would be no "lost". -
Pastor Larry,
As to whether I actually have a Th.D. degree is your question. As our Lord has said, 'Be not faithless but believing.' I don't recall that I question whether you are really a pastor. I just believe that you are what you say you are. It's not difficult. Have a tiny bit of faith in your fellow-heir in the Kingdom of God. -
I don't need to have faith in you. That is not my point. My question is how do you say the stuff you do if you have the kind of educational background you claim to have. I can't understand why someone with a degree from a reputable place would not be willing to post it. Are you ashamed of it?
The point of mine is that you are denying total depravity based on things that we agree on. You cannot agree with me and then use that agreement to dispute my position. It would be like me agreeing that you have a red shirt on and then using that to argue that you have no shirt on. It just doesn't make sense. But it stems, it seems, from your failure to understand what we are saying and your unwillingness to accept the explanations of it. -
Posted by Primitive Baptist:
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