One good consideration as to whether John baptized the disciples of Jesus is one of authority.
When Jesus came for baptism John at first refused. The one with greater authority baptized, and John recognized that. Jesus insisted, saying it fulfilled righteousness. The Holy Spirit descending like a dove upon Jesus demonstrated that Jesus had the greater authority, though John fulfilled his role as the forerunner.
At that point, for the disciples of Jesus to submit to the baptism of John might be interpreted as John having greater authority than Jesus.
John, himself, stated that he (his ministry) must decrease and Jesus (His ministry) must increase.
That is an admission of the greater authority of Jesus that might be obscured if His disciples submitted to John’s baptism.
peace to you
Trail of Blood
Discussion in 'General Baptist Discussions' started by sag38, Oct 14, 2020.
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The only ones said to baptize before Pentecost was John the Baptist and Jesus, by way of His disciples.(John 4:1-2). There is no reason to suppose any of Jesus' followers prior to the cross were not baptised or one or the other baptisms were not "Christian" in following Jesus.
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I did edit my comments
but I am of the school that it is not important who does the baptizing., rather it is important that we are properly baptized - ie immersion, reason for being baptized, ect.
Sure if you are joining First Bapt of Atlanta - it would be great to be baptized by Dr Stanely - but in the 20th century - what % of new members has he personally baptized? -
RighteousnessTemperance& Well-Known Member
The apostles were expectantly looking for the Messiah, and were open-minded enough to listen to Jesus. John was the chosen one who prepared the way, people went out to him, and he baptized them, even those who many may have disliked, for example, publicans.
John’s ministry was far too important, had far too much impact to think that Jews expectantly awaiting the Messiah would not respond to his message. The character of the apostles argues against the idea that they would not have also responded and been baptized. -
I will repeat myself - if it was that important - Scripture would have so mention.
Who knows, maybe Peter thought he had to get into the act! -
I'm not aware of any specific works that refute Trail of Blood. Trail of Blood isn't really that widely held (if at all) where im from. Best I can do is to recommend really church history books, Nick Needham's (a baptist minister) 2000 years of Christs power. -
Now, If I am not mistiaken - many -if not most - Landmarkds are KJO.
IF so, one of those tennents - is that the KJV does NOT have a copyright.
(Not sure how they explain that the Royal Family of England does have a copyright)
Yet the Landmarks DO have a copyright on The ToB!
I think I have a ToB somewhere - but what I would like to see are the references/footnotes. -
On that latter subject, I would be curious to know, from those to whom it applies, whether the baptisms performed by the disciples of Jesus (John 3:22; John 4:1-2) before Pentecost were or were not "Christian baptism."
I think you will tend to find that the more vocal KJVO Landmark Baptists are usually independent. It is hard to know just how many churches this might be. -
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2000 Years of Christ's Power, 4 Vols. (Needham) -
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However, possibly - 30-50 years ago most may have been KJO - but in the last decade or 2 -
the younger generation of pastors may have reconsidered that position.
But the whole point was that KJO believes in no copyright - but they have no problem with ToB having a copyright.
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Independent? independent of what?
The term independent Baptist has an established meaning: = not being affiliated with the Convention (Northern or Southern). -
2016 Centennial of Ashland Avenue Baptist Church
"'God has made us chronological creatures. We think necessarily in terms of past, present and future. That's why history is so important to us. That is why I am so honored to celebrate with Ashland Avenue Baptist Church, your 100th anniversary, past, present and future,' Mohler said."
"'Few churches not only have the history of your church, but few actually have the intentionality in that history as well,' he continued. 'There is a very clear identity to Ashland Avenue Baptist Church, committed from the very beginning to the faith once for all delivered to the saints.'"
FYI & FWIW:
Pastor David Prince, Ashland Avenue Baptist Church
Pastor David E. Prince "came to Ashland in November 2003....He received is M.Div from Southwestern Theological Seminary and his Ph.D from the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary. In addition to his role at Ashland, he is also an Associate Professor for Christian Preaching and Pastoral Ministry at the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary in Louisville, KY."
[Prince's predecessor at Ashland Ave. was Hershael York, who's now the Dean of SBTS's School of Theology!]
Prince is also chairman of the board of trustees of the SBC's Ethics and Religious Liberty Commission! He's been one of Russell Moore's strongest defenders:
Feb 21, 2020 • ERLC Upset It's Being Investigated
"In an open letter...ERLC trustee officers called the task force...'unwarranted, divisive, and disrespectful'. Signed by ERLC Board of Trustees chairman David Prince and the board’s other officers, the letter...included a statement of support for ERLC president Russell Moore." -
So what you are saying if you support a missionary - that is affiliation.
If you fellowship with another local independent church - that is affiliation
If you work with an organization - say - Sword of the Lord - that is affiliation -
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James Milton Carroll (January 8, 1852 – January 10, 1931) was the son of Benajah and Mary Eliza Carroll. His father was a Baptist minister, as well as his better known older brother, Benajah Harvey (B.H.) Carroll.
J. M. Carroll was a Baptist pastor, author, and educator. He was an amateur ornithologist, and reputedly owned one of the largest collections of bird eggs in the state Texas. Carroll founded the Education Commission of the Baptist General Convention of Texas. He was a founder and the first president of San Marcos Baptist Academy, and was president of both Oklahoma Baptist University and Howard Payne University. I think he worked in some way at some time for both the Texas Baptist & Herald (periodical) and Baylor University.
In addition to his well-known book The Trail of Blood, he wrote several other books, including Texas Baptist Statistics (1896), A History of Texas Baptists, B. H. Carroll, The Colossus of Baptist History, and Just Such a Time: Recollections of Childhood on the Texas Frontier, 1858-1867. -
Going back to my "carefully worded statement" the Majority (if not all) of Landmarkers that I knew - were all King James only.
About the only "power" that a association/convention/Fellowship/Alliance has over a local independent church is to withdraw fellowship.
As far as the ToB being copyrighted - esp since it is over 100 years old - why should they worry about a copyright - My thinking is that if they believe that strongly - they would want wide distribution of that booklet. -
CreateSpace Independent Publishing Platform (February 11, 2015)
Bible Nation Society, The (July 19, 2017) -
Squire Robertsson AdministratorAdministrator
Many make ToB into something it isn't and has never been. ToB is a compilation of notes and the charts from Carroll's lectures he gave in various churches. It is not a comprehensive work.
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