Trial date set in first of five Missouri Baptist lawsuits

[gb93433]

Are the MO Baptists in the SBC going to show us how it is done?

Seems like they are on a mission to keep up a boxing match with no winners. They must be in good shape to endure such fleshly events. Most likely the jury will be made up of a number of non-Christians and they will get to see and report how MO Baptists participate in such a fine match. What a sight to behold! This would be a good time for the SBC folks in MO to step up to the plate and leave their press box of complacency or leave the SBC with some empty buildings. Something needs to happen and it sure is not the way things are going.

Source: http://www.abpnews.com/www/2147.article

Trial date set in first of five Missouri Baptist lawsuits
By Vicki Brown
Published: May 14, 2007

JEFFERSON CITY, Mo. (ABP) -- A Missouri judge has set a date for the first jury trial in the cases of five statewide Baptist institutions embroiled in an ongoing legal battle with the Missouri Baptist Convention.

Jury selection in the MBC's lawsuit against Windermere Baptist Conference Center is set to begin on Oct. 23, with the trial scheduled to run through Oct. 31.

Cole County Circuit Court Judge Richard Callahan ruled at a hearing on May 4 that the MBC challenges to moves by trustees of the five entities -- the Baptist Home retirement-home system, the Word & Way newspaper, the Missouri Baptist Foundation, Missouri Baptist University and Windermere -- should be tried separately.

The convention had sought four trials, one as a combined case against Windermere and Word & Way and one each against the other three defendants.

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[DQuixote]

Unbelieveable.

 

[canadyjd]

This is very sad. It directly contradicts scripture that we should not bringing matters of the church before a secular court.

peace to youraying:

 

[gb93433]

This is very sad. It directly contradicts scripture that we should not bringing matters of the church before a secular court.

It is not just one of two churches but an entire state convention which is involved. Where are the people who will stand up and be counted instead of living like practical atheists who live like God doesn't exist?

I am sure they will reap the benefits of their ungodliness.

 

[canadyjd]

I am sure they will reap the benefits of their ungodliness.

Perhaps we already are reaping the consequences.

peace to youraying:

 

[StraightAndNarrow]

This is what happens as a result of the fundamentalist far right wing of the SBC thinking they can pull a political extremist move and take over the convention. Eventually... [Moderator note: You are not allowed to question the salvation of your fellow posters who consider themselves to conservatives].

 

[gb93433]

This is what happens as a result of the fundamentalist far right wing of the SBC thinking they can pull a political extremist move and take over the convention. Eventually...

I had been in business for myself for many years and had worked for someone else before that as a manager in a large business and found that typically there is one kind of person who claimed to be what they were not. It was never the humble.

 

[DHK]

This is what happens as a result of the fundamentalist far right wing of the SBC thinking they can pull a political extremist move and take over the convention. Eventually...

I have apprecitated many of your posts Straight, but you have many of us wondering about your sincerity.
Please define who are the "real Christians?"
Who, conversely, are the "unreal Christains," or is it "fake Christians" that you actually mean?
Are you implying that on this section, Baptist Only, that many of the posters are not saved. Are you questioning our salvation because we don't fall into your pre-defined group of "real Christians," which only you can define.
A Christian is one who has trusted the shed blood of the Lord Jesus Christ, and on that basis has Christ as His Savior. So please tell me what is a real Christian as opposed to one who is not?

 

[gb93433]

So please tell me what is a real Christian as opposed to one who is not?

We need to remember what Jesus taught in Mt. 7:15-27, "Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves. "You will know them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes nor figs from thistles, are they? "So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit. "A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit. "Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. "So then, you will know them by their fruits. "Not everyone who says to Me, `Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. "Many will say to Me on that day, `Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?' "And then I will declare to them, `I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.' "Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine and acts on them, may be compared to a wise man who built his house on the rock. "And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and yet it did not fall, for it had been founded on the rock. "Everyone who hears these words of Mine and does not act on them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand. "The rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and it fell--and great was its fall."

 

[DHK]

We need to remember what Jesus taught in Mt. 7:15-27, "Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves. "You will know them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes nor figs from thistles, are they? "So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit. "A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit. "Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. "So then, you will know them by their fruits. "Not everyone who says to Me, `Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter. "Many will say to Me on that day, `Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?' "And then I will declare to them, `I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.' "Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine and acts on them, may be compared to a wise man who built his house on the rock. "And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and yet it did not fall, for it had been founded on the rock. "Everyone who hears these words of Mine and does not act on them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand. "The rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and it fell--and great was its fall."

I realize the gb, but I want to know if Straight and Narrow, in this Baptist Only forum is using this is the same way, or is he actually questioning the salvation of others in a veiled way.

 

[gb93433]

I realize the gb, but I want to know if Straight and Narrow, in this Baptist Only forum is using this is the same way, or is he actually questioning the salvation of others in a veiled way.

I did not read that into it. I read it as an issue of separating the wheat from the chaff. Eventually that happens.

If you will notice the only people Jesus ever condemned were the religionists (Pharisees).

 

[Bro. James]

An interesting dilema--not a new one to be sure--

This is kind of like the parishioners finding out much of "their" property has been sold by the bishop for hush money. He is "perfectly" within his legal rights to do so.(Sell his property that is) Who do you sue? The holy see?

"God does not dwell in temples made with hands."

Sell what you have (remaining), give it to the poor, follow Jesus--you will not have such problems.

Now what?

"Even so, come Lord Jesus."

Selah,

Bro. James

 

[canadyjd]

This is what happens as a result of the fundamentalist far right wing of the SBC thinking they can pull a political extremist move and take over the convention. Eventually...

Just to set the record straight; real Christians have prevailed. The conservatives Christians did what we are suppose to do within a democratic process. They made their case to the churches. The conservative churches sent messengers of the same conservative mind to the convention. The liberal/moderate churches sent their messengers as well.

The conservative messengers were in the majority and elected convention leaders of the same conservative mind to implement conservative principles. The conservative elected leaders appointed convention trustees of the same conservative mind.

The existing "moderates (i.e. liberals)" trustees of the various entities realized their "thinking" was in the minority and they had lost their influence in the convention and would certainly loose their power. They decided they would violate the convention rules and their own charters (and possibly Missouri law) by changing their charters without convention approval.

That would allow them to appoint their own liberal/moderate trustees to fill the trustee positions, thus bypassing the will of Missouri Baptists who had voted for the conservative change.

That was an extremist, liberal political move to keep power that had passed peacefully throught the democratic process to the conservatives. It is the liberals/moderates who are trying to thwart the will of the majority.

Furthermore, the conservatives offered the institutions the opportunity to accept binding Christian arbitration. That would have kept the matter out of the secular courts. They rejected the offer. The value of the properties in dispute is in the tens of millions. That is money Missouri Baptists have contributed over time to these institutions.

It is the liberals/moderates in these institutions, desparate to hold on to power and influence, that have pressed this matter into the secular courts.

As I have said before, it is very sad and a violation of scripture to have this settled before a secular court. You cannot, however, place the blame for bringing this into a secular court solely, or even primarily, on the conservative leadership.

peace to youraying:

 

[gb93433]

Just to set the record straight; real Christians have prevailed. The conservatives Christians did what we are suppose to do within a democratic process. They made their case to the churches. The conservative churches sent messengers of the same conservative mind to the convention. The liberal/moderate churches sent their messengers as well.

The conservative messengers were in the majority and elected convention leaders of the same conservative mind to implement conservative principles. The conservative elected leaders appointed convention trustees of the same conservative mind.

What you have stated is exactly the problem with conservative Christianity. I do not see one time where Jesus acted in a conservative way. He profess a radical love for God and people not a lukewarm sweet feeling and watching the world go by. He professed a radical gospel not one like wqe see today of doing as you please and claiming to follow Jesus. Radical Christianity calls for action not just relying on a democracy. Those conservatives are quickly finding out how well their theology of a democracy being godly is working. Conservatism acts in a conservative way and often acts like practical atheism. Christ demands action not conservatism. Conservatives need to quit being afraid of listening to the book of James.

Being conservative is the problem. Being conservative is not living the Christian life. Being conservative is the same thing as being lukewarm.

Many of us in Arizona saw what happened when we took a stance against the BFA. The conservatives stood up and assured us everything was alright and spoke aginst us telling everyone at the convention meetiung we were wrong. Later the conservatives who refused to investigate found how wrong they were when the SEC came in and investigated.

It is quite hard to have a court case with one side present. It takes two for that to happen.

It takes two for a fight to happen.

 

[StraightAndNarrow]

I have apprecitated many of your posts Straight, but you have many of us wondering about your sincerity.
Please define who are the "real Christians?"
Who, conversely, are the "unreal Christains," or is it "fake Christians" that you actually mean?
Are you implying that on this section, Baptist Only, that many of the posters are not saved. Are you questioning our salvation because we don't fall into your pre-defined group of "real Christians," which only you can define.
A Christian is one who has trusted the shed blood of the Lord Jesus Christ, and on that basis has Christ as His Savior. So please tell me what is a real Christian as opposed to one who is not?

The unreal Christians are those who put politics or power above the humble nature that Christ displayed. They use religion for something other than praising God.

 

[gb93433]

The unreal Christians are those who put politics or power above the humble nature that Christ displayed. They use religion for something other than praising God.

You hit the nail on the head

 

[PastorSBC1303]

The MBC is definitely in a mess and desperately needs prayer. I would hope that brothers and sisters in Christ from around the country and world would be more interested in praying for the mess our convention is in rather than throwing stones at the MBC and the SBC.

 

[canadyjd]

I do not see one time where Jesus acted in a conservative way.

Then you must not read your bible very much. Jesus said He did not come to abolish the Law or the Prophets, but to fulfill. (Matt:5:17) That is conservative, not radical; not liberal.

The people wanted a revolutionary that would overthrow the Roman government and restore the Jewish nation. Jesus wanted to be obedient to His father, even onto death. That is conservative, not radical; not liberal.

Jesus believed the bible (Hebrew Scriptures) to be the Word of God, and quoted often from it. He did not dismiss it as myths and fantasy. He did not dismiss it as the imagination of men. He saw it as God's Word. That is conservative, not radical; not liberal.

Jesus supported the traditional understanding of marriage as between one man and one woman for life. That is conservative, not radical; not liberal.

Jesus understood and taught us that the role of religion and the role of government are different things. Render to Ceasar what is Ceasar's and to God what is God's. He told us not to consider this world our home, but that to long for our real home in heaven. That is conservative, not radical; not liberal.

Radical Christianity calls for action not just relying on a democracy. Those conservatives are quickly finding out how well their theology of a democracy being godly is working. Conservatism acts in a conservative way and often acts like practical atheism. Christ demands action not conservatism. Conservatives need to quit being afraid of listening to the book of James.

You are a walking, talking ocean of contradictions. You criticize the conservatives for taking the institutions to a secular court to settle the matter. You then criticize them for relying only on democracy and not taking action.

What you have stated is exactly the problem with conservative Christianity...Being conservative is the problem. Being conservative is not living the Christian life. Being conservative is the same thing as being lukewarm.

cattlecakes! Conservatives took action to change the convention, and they prevailed! You should be praising them if you really believe what you are saying.

peace to youraying:

 

[Joseph M. Smith]

The MBC is definitely in a mess and desperately needs prayer. I would hope that brothers and sisters in Christ from around the country and world would be more interested in praying for the mess our convention is in rather than throwing stones at the MBC and the SBC.

Has Cooperative Program giving been adversely affected? One would expect so ... not too many church members would want to see their money being burned up in lawsuits or in the wrangling that has gone in the Missouri Convention quite apart from the issues with the institutions.

The state of "misery".

 

[PastorSBC1303]

Has Cooperative Program giving been adversely affected? One would expect so ...

Yes, everything has been adversely affected.