Lexicons, dictionaries, and encyclopedias, are just as much reference works as are commentaries. Come off your high horse and admit that you resorted to another man's work. You didn't put toghether Strong's Concordance or his Hebrew/Greek lexicon (if that is what you used. Strong did it. Are you taking credit for another man's work and then claiming it for yourself. That is plagiarism. What did those numbers mean before those words? Where did they come from? A scholar or the man in the moon? Or were they 3AM's original? Won't you admit that you used another man's reference material???
DHK
Trinity or no trinity?
Discussion in 'Free-For-All Archives' started by 3AngelsMom, Mar 26, 2003.
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DHK,
Using the Strongs concordance is the same thing as using a dictionary. It is a translation tool. It tells you what a word in the Greek and Hebrew means in English.
It is NOT a commentary, which is the OPINION of someone else about what THEY THINK God 'meant' by what the Scripture states.
BIG difference.
And I don't have a 'high horse'.
I just have a higher standard of study than you do.
God Bless -
Is it bad to use commentaries? Certainly not. Is it bad to rely on commentaries? Certainly is.
And thus, I like to read what others think about the Bible, including you. I just tend to disagree with some of 'em, based on what I read in the Bible.
Now, if you think DHK's relying too much on commentaries, that's what you oughtta say to him. But to indicate that we shouldn't use commentaries at all--well, that shows you believe your opinion is more valid than those of Tertullian, Matthew Henry, and many of the other Christian forefathers. -
Don,
This is my 'motto':
Psalm 119: 169. Let my cry come near before thee, O Lord: give me understanding according to thy word.
I would like to say that I live by that, but it would be a little too prideful to say so, but I do try my best to do so.
I do not use commentaries because I want the understanding that I come to, to be untainted by the opinions of others, but WHOLLY led by the Spirit through the Word of God.
DHK's use of commentaries really doesn't concern me, commentaries or no, I do not agree with his interpretation of scripture. His use HERE is for the purpose, as it seems to me, to prove that HIS interpretation should be taken MORE seriously because some 'wise' man from ages past agrees with him.
THAT is why I protest his using them HERE.
If he uses them for personal study that is his problem, and I can't really do much about it, but I do NOT have to accept the opinions of 'learned' men over the Word of God and the guidance of the Holy Spirit.
How do ANY of us know that the commentaries that were written by these men are right? I find it hard to believe that people who believe in eternal torment and immediate reward are TRULY led by the Spirit. That may seem harsh to you, and I apologize if that offends you, but the knowledge and understanding that I have, was gained by my submission to the Holy Spirit in HIS guidance of my study, instead of just 'taking someone elses word for it'.
Clinging to false doctrine just because someone else agrees, or used to agree (meaning those who have gone before us) makes someone appear quite obstinant and, quite frankly, rebellious.
I really do lose respect for people when I show them 25 Bible verses to support my position and they post a 5 paragraph commentary written by someone else.
I see it as 'lazy' argument.
God Bless -
DHK -
Actually, I don't believe that Jesus is the Most High God.
There is a difference.
Jesus is the Son of the Most High God, and by inheritance has the nature and attributes of the Most High God, but He, Himself, is NOT the Most High God, nor is He completely equal to the Most High God. All attributes that are equal between Jesus and the Most High God are attributes that the Most High God gave to Jesus.
Jesus is not the Most High God.
I said that about 30 times before.
You should know by now that when I say 'God' I am talking about the Father, Yahweh, the Most High God.
Which Jesus is not.
God Bless (the Most High God) -
Sorry this took so long to respond to, but as you can see, the topic got derailed there for a little while...
The arrogance of most of the people on this board is sickening to me, and just about on a daily basis I have to ask God to renew my burden for them because after a while, I get kind of caulused.
I have always respected you and your gracious attitude. I have enjoyed debating you in this forum.
Neal4Christ.....the big bad Seminary student aka Big Brown man.
God Bless -
John 10:30 I and my Father are one.
Jesus Himself said He was God, not that He was equal to God. The Jews were the ones who took this statement to mean that He was elevating Himself to a position equal to God. -
When I say 'God' I might mean God the Father or I might mean 'the Triune God' depending on the context. I believe YHWH is the Triune God, not just God the Father. When I say Jesus is God I mean Jesus is the Triune God, not Jesus is God the Father.
I believe Paul also used God to mean both God the Father and the Triune God, depending on the context, so, when he wrote "God and the Lord Jesus Christ" then by imlpication he meant "God the Father". But if he simply said "God" he may well have meant 'the Triune God, YHWH".
God bless (the Triune God :D )
Helen/AITB -
No, I am not there yet!
Neal -
Neal
[ March 31, 2003, 01:27 PM: Message edited by: neal4christ ] -
Neal,
Isaiah 9:6
For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counseller, The mighty God, the everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
Wonderful: self expainitory
Counsellor: it is Christ's ACTUAL Spirit that is the Holy Spirit
Mighty God: DOES NOT say 'Most High God'
Everlasing Father: reference to Christ inheriting His Father's Name.
Prince of Peace: self expainitory
I completely believe this prophecy.
Although, even in the Gospels it says that when Jesus was born they should call His name 'Emmanuel' and they didn't.
So His name(s) do alot for describing His characteristics and attributes, all of which were given to Him by the Most High God, His Father.
God Bless -
Isa.9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.
The mighty God This phrase literally means “God, the mighty man.” It refers to Christ in His humanity as God. As Isaiah referred earlier in 7:14, Immanuel, meaning “God with us.” That is who Christ is, God with us. He always was, always will be.
The everlasting Father Literally the Father of eternity, or as some have put it the author of eternity. It refers to the timelessness of Christ as God. He is the God of all eternity, the God of creation, the Father of us all in the sense that He is the Creator of all. For Him to be described here as eternal should put away once and for all any thought that Christ was either created or proceeded from the Father, or had a beginning of any sort. He always was. He is eternal. He is God.
DHK -
John 8:42. Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.
43. Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.
SO, a verse in Isaiah, that doesn't even SAY Jesus, cannot supercede a verse that is a direct quote of Jesus!
Jesus HIMSELF said that He proceeded forth from the Father.
That is undeniable.
It is fact.
God Bless -
Originally posted by DHK:
These verses simply refer to Christ's humanity. He did not come of his own self. He is not a false prophet. He was sent by His Father, humanly speaking. "Prceeding from," simply meaning "sent."
God sent His son into the world because He loved us.
DHKClick to expand...
John 17: 8. For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst send me. (Jesus talking to His Father)
Ok, AND you said that the 'proceeding from' simply means 'sent', so then WHY did He say, in BOTH verses 'I [came/proceeded forth] from' AND '[He/You]sent me'? If they both mean 'sent' why did He use TWO different words, "exerchomai" [came/proceeded forth] and "apostello" [sent]?
He said TWO different things in both verses.
He came out from, proceeded forth from, and was sent.
Two different words, with two VERY DIFFERENT meanings.
God Bless
[ April 03, 2003, 10:49 PM: Message edited by: 3AngelsMom ] -
John 8:42 Therefore Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came out and have come from God. For I haven't come of myself, but he sent me. (World English Bible)
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Originally posted by DHK:
John 8:42 Therefore Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came out and have come from God. For I haven't come of myself, but he sent me. (World English Bible)Click to expand...
What was your point in posting that?
It STILL says TWO different words. I am basing my exegesis of the text on the original Greek, not the KJV, or the WEB, or any other translation.
God Bless -
The word erchomai is used 222 times in the Bible. In the KJV this is how it is translated:
To go out: 60 times
To come: 34 times
To depart: 28 times
To go: 25 times
To go forth: 25 times
To come out: 23 times
To come forth: 9 times
18 times it is translated in a various other ways such as: to go abroad, to go thence, to spread abroad, to get out, to proceed.
The word in no way gives one the impression that God gave birth to Christ. It does not mean “beget,” or coming forth, or proceeding forth, in the sense of birthing, or creating. Christ never had a beginning. He Himself is God. He is eternal. The verse refers to his humanity when God sent “His Son” into this world to be born of a virgin. That “Son” never had a beginning. He was from all eternity God, the second person of the Godhead.
DHK -
Originally posted by DHK:
[QB] The word erchomai is used 222 times in the Bible. In the KJV this is how it is translated:
To go out: 60 times
To come: 34 times
To depart: 28 times
To go: 25 times
To go forth: 25 times
To come out: 23 times
To come forth: 9 times
18 times it is translated in a various other ways such as: to go abroad, to go thence, to spread abroad, to get out, to proceed.Click to expand...
The word in no way gives one the impression that God gave birth to Christ.Click to expand...
It does not mean “beget,” or coming forth, or proceeding forth, in the sense of birthing, or creating.Click to expand...
Christ never had a beginning.Click to expand...
16. For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
17. And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.
18. And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
19. For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;
20. And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.
John 5:26. For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;
He Himself is GodClick to expand...
17. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18. He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
1 John 4:12. No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us. (from the Apostle that sat at the feet of Jesus and SAW Him every day)
John 17: 3. And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent. (Jesus speaking)
He is eternal.Click to expand...
1 Timothy 1:1. Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the commandment of God our Saviour, AND Lord Jesus Christ, which is our hope;....15. This is a faithful saying, and worthy of all acceptation, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners; of whom I am chief. 16. Howbeit for this cause I obtained mercy, that in me first Jesus Christ might shew forth all longsuffering, for a pattern to them which should hereafter believe on him to life everlasting. 17. Now unto the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only wise God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen.
Invisible. Jesus IS NOT who Paul is praising here! How do I know that?
Col 1:15. Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
The verse refers to his humanity when God sent “His Son” into this world to be born of a virgin.Click to expand...
He was from all eternity God, the second person of the Godhead.Click to expand...
He is, however, called the 'Son of God' OVER 50 times in the NT!
And NOT once does Jesus claim to be the Most High God, or the 2nd person of the Godhead. He claimed to be the SON of God.
God Bless
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