Yes, it is. I made it clear in my longer response that the Gospel Call is universal.
TULIP for Real Life
Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by loDebar, Aug 6, 2018.
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- God drew a sinful Adam out of hiding in the bushes (before he was given a new heart).
- A sinful "natural man" Adam was confronted with his sin and blamed God.
- God then punished Adam with a curse and extended a measure of Grace and Mercy (spared his physical life for the moment by withholding the punishment of physical death that Adam deserved and offered hope for future redemption through the seed of the woman.)
- At no point was repentance shown or was salvation promised to Adam. Soteriology is simply not dealt with in Genesis 3.
We must contrast this with the case of a modern man:
- We are all born "natural man" with the no "pre-sin" period in our life and meet God for the first time also wanting to hide in the bushes. However God draws some sinners to Christ. (John 6:44)
- At Christ we can hear the Gospel.
- Only the Holy Spirit has the power to remove a dead heart and give us a living heart (Eph 2:1-10).
- Only after the HS transforms us from a "natural man" who cannot understand spiritual things, to a Spiritual man that can, do we have the power to believe and have faith and repent and receive the Holy Spirit as a deposit guaranteeing our inheritance.
... That and GOD CAN DRAW ANYONE HE PLEASES ... Adam, Job, Satan, Paul, Jonah ... with or without their permission and with an old or new heart! That's what it means to be a Sovereign, Omnipotent God. -
InTheLight Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
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And here I was always taught that Universalism was a heresy. Thank you for clearing that up.
How about if you exegete John 12:32 and explain the phrase "all men" since the Incas living in Central America were certainly not "drawn" to Jesus when he was "lifted up" on that cross 2000 years ago. Did Jesus misspeak? -
I have never actually seen you exegete a verse so It should be enlightening.
I think Jesus said something similar to Peter and several comments to Judas.
I wonder if that is significant? -
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Now what does ALL MEN mean?
The natives of Central America were not drawn to Jesus when he died on the Cross, so all men cannot mean every single living person without exception. Can it? -
SovereignGrace Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
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SovereignGrace Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
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SovereignGrace Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
God conversed with Cain after he murdered Abel.
However, when we witness to lost ppl, it is like Ezekiel looking over that valley of very dry bones. If he had took it upon himself to speak to those bones, they would not and could not have listened to him, seeing they were dead. But it was once God gave the command to Ezekiel and Ezekiel spoke the words He told him to say, they reacted to those words.
That's a picture of the gospel and how it works. As we witness to the lost, if God moves as we are speaking to those who are spiritually dead, watch them come to life just like those bones did. -
Total depravity is established.
Did Jacob choose himself? No. God chose Jacob while He was yet in the womb. You might say that God chose based on the foreknowledge that Jacob would be a better man than Esau, but we've already established that a corrupt tree cannot bring forth good fruit. And though Esau despised his birthright, Jacob was a liar and a thief.
Unconditional Election is established.
Will all be saved? No. So you believe in limited atonement, you're just in disagreement on the limiter, but T and U being established above eliminates man's choice as an option for limiter.
Limited Atonement is established.
Irresistible Grace. In the natural world, there is a picture of this. Did you choose to be born? Did you choose your gender or race? God didn't give you a say in your existence or heritage, but He gives you the choice in your second birth? Did Paul have a choice? Did Lazarus have a choice? Did Jacob? A corrupt tree cannot bring forth good fruit, not even the fruit of repentance. We are a new creation. In the first creation, when God said, "Let there be light," could light have not appeared? Could Adam have not received the breath of God? And you think His new creation can refuse?
Irresistible Grace is established.
2 Corinthians 9:8 ff And God is able to make all grace abound toward you; that ye, always having all sufficiency in all things, may abound to every good work: Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you WILL PERFORM IT until the day of Jesus Christ: That ye might walk worthy of the Lord unto all pleasing, being fruitful in every good work, and increasing in the knowledge of God;
Perseverance of the Saints is established. -
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But they weren't incorruptible.
So corruption had crept in. I've been asked, when? I cannot say for certain, but I would say that Adam was corrupted by his communication with the Serpent. He believed the lie, that they would be as gods knowing good and evil, and that is not a choice one makes. I cannot choose to believe a lie any more than I can choose to believe the truth. I either believe what I'm being told, or I don't.
The thing that we learned from the law was that our exposure to corruption corrupts us. Touching something unclean made the clean unclean. Even if that exposure was not willful.
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