U.S. Nears 1,000th Execution Since 1977

KenH

Soccer on T.V. Yikes! Talk about cruel and unusual punishment.

Nice try at dodging. I did address Gen. 9. No mention of governments there. Don't worry, no one else wants to talk about I Tim. 1:16 either.

Enjoy the game.

It is unChristlike to seek or support the death of anyone.

peace to you

 

Moving this to the Politics Forum.

Lady Eagle,
Moderator

 

canadyjd, by constantly using this refrain, you imply that those who disagree are not being christlike. I find that to be very self-righteous.
And then you sign, "peace to you" even though you basically have just said that the person is unchristlike. Well, it is not peaceful for me to hear someone say I am unchristlike if I disagree with you on this.

You keep bringing up 1 Tim 1.16, but it does not have anything to do with doing away with the death penalty and you have not shown that it does.

All who are saved are shown mercy, whether the death penalty exists or not. That is what Paul is saying -- that he, the one who persecuted believers, has been shown mercy so that others can see how merciful God is.

The death penalty (and I agree with Pastor Larry and KenH in their standing on Gen. 9) does not mean God is not merciful. Otherwise, we'd have to say that God was not merciful in the OT but became merciful in the NT; or that God was not merciful with the Jews when he had all those death penalties for various sins, even sins outside of murder; or we'd have to say that God the Father is not merciful but Jesus is -- all of those statements are inane and unbiblical.

God is always merciful - in the OT and NT.

 

Code:

[b]Don't worry, no one else wants to talk about I Tim. 1:16 either.[/b][/quote]Whoah there, Canady. I have talked about every single passage you have put forth. I have shown that they are all deficient in what you are trying to prove.

John 8 doesn't address capital murder, but adultery under the Law. Gen 9 addresses capital murder before the Law, and therefore is not refuted by John 8. BTW, "shed man's blood" is capital murder. 

1 Tim 1:16 talks about love and forgiveness. As I pointed out, love and forgiveness does not absolve one of the consequences of their sinfulness in this life as I showed from the lesser offense illustration. The truth is that you don't apply your own standard to your dealings with your children (if you have them). I imagine you clearly understand that love and forgiveness doesn't mean the penalty goes away. Therefore, 1 Tim 1:16 doesn't help you either.

In short, my friend, you are simply unsupported by Scripture. Your proof texts don't work. You need to change your view to align with God's word. 

People who are Christlike support the sanctity of human life through the use of the death penalty.

 

Pastor Larry's quote on the Tim verse is right on. All are to be saved if possible, but the consequences of capital murder is forfiet of life, and until that life is gone, salvation is available.

I like to think that my life is worth so much to my Lord that he protects me with a sentence of death to anyone that would take it unjustly. There is comfort in knowing He loves me that much.

 

Canadyjd, you really need to understand what the Bible has for you.
All the Bible was written for you
Not all the Bible was written to you.

It's important to realize what is written to you so that you don't try to put action to things not intended for you. And worse to take a verse out of context or misapply it, such as you are in the 1Tim verses.

We get better understand of the unbelievable greatness of our Lord through his word properly applied.

 

OK if we want to play the "my proof text is older than your proof text" war, then what about Gen 4 - God commanded that Cain did not forfeit his life for the murder of Abel. That predates Gen 9

I ask again: show me where Jesus Christ, in the Gospels, supports the death penalty and I, as His follower, will do the same.

 

Why do you establish a canon within a canon? Why are the words of Jesus in the Gospels the really important part? God says that all Scripture is inspired. There are many things that we live by that Jesus did not directly say. But because they are in Scripture we believe them and live by them. You argument is an attempt at a theology of convenience that cannot be held consistently.

BTW Gen 4 has already been answered multiple times. God was the one who was mandating justice. As we have said, God can do what he wants. We cannot.

 

Did Jesus support life imprisonment for rapists? Did He support "three strikes you're out"? Did He take a stand for a free press? Did He take a stand against slavery? Did he say that thieves or murderers should be thrown in jail to rot? Did he say that rapists should or should not be castrated, physically or chemically? I don't find His political platform in the Bible; does that mean that we should not take stands on such issues?

 

Ah but Jesus did take a stand against the death penalty that was mandated by the OT.

FTR, I think the difference here is that no-one here is advocating that any of your points are Biblically mandated (they are simply examples of laws which governments/ legislatures can and do make); they are however arguing that the death penalty is mandated by Jesus. Therefore it is vital that we examine His words and actions to see if that is correct. That's why I asked the question.

[ November 27, 2005, 11:53 AM: Message edited by: Matt Black ]

 

Good point, Matt, that I obviously missed. My answer to that is that I believe He was talking about taking another individual's life by a premeditated act and that He was not speaking to public policy.

 

I don't know where this thread came from but the real import of it is how sad that so many murderers have not received the justice that they have deserved--death. It is an indictment of our judicial system that so many murderers do not have to pay with their own lives.

 

Come on, now, Matt. Let's tell the whole story, not just the part that is convenient. The death penalty Jesus "addressed" was the death penalty of hte Mosaic Law for adultery. And even in that case, he gave no instruction at all about it. If you read John 8, you will see no reference to the death penalty at all. He simply told hte woman to go and sin no more. He addressed it no further, and you should not read into it any further.

Secondly, the death penalty for capital murder (as we have pointed out many times) is not a part of the OT Law which Jesus would have been addressing. It predated the Law and is rooted in the eternal truth that man is made in the image of God.

As we have pointed out, Gen 9:6 is the mandate of Christ. All Scripture is inspired by God, and therefore Gen 9:6 is included in that, unless you want to deny the deity of Christ. I don't imagine that you do.

You are repeating things that have already been answered Matt. CAn you move us forward at all? Or just keep rehashing this old ground?

 

AS if God needs any help dealing with "terrorists" and keeping us Christians safe.


Jamie
Shaking my head in disbeilf in some statements on this a Christian forum. </font>[/QUOTE]God needs no help with anything. But, that does not mean that he does not use Governments for his purposes (Romans 13).

Can you only imagine if we didn't have to watch interviews for the past 2 1/2 decades of Manson mocking his victims and their families? Do the DNA. Give them 2 appeals. Give them as much due process as you can and then give them justice, hiwever, imperfect it may be sometimes.

Joseph Botwinick

 

As I have already stated my position on the matter, I would just like to add that I believe a great deterrant to future crimes would be to force violent juvenile offenders to witness the public execution of a murderer.

This is a fantastic teaching opportunity that is wasted behind closed doors.

Public hangings in the "town square", or some other centralized public location in the city.

Taking young disobedient teens and adolescents to visit a prison, with real prisoners, seems to work much of the time on talk shows in turning their behavior around. I think forcing the violent ones to view a public execution would work just as well.

 

Come on, now, Matt. Let's tell the whole story, not just the part that is convenient. The death penalty Jesus "addressed" was the death penalty of hte Mosaic Law for adultery. And even in that case, he gave no instruction at all about it. If you read John 8, you will see no reference to the death penalty at all. He simply told hte woman to go and sin no more. He addressed it no further, and you should not read into it any further.

Secondly, the death penalty for capital murder (as we have pointed out many times) is not a part of the OT Law which Jesus would have been addressing. It predated the Law and is rooted in the eternal truth that man is made in the image of God.

As we have pointed out, Gen 9:6 is the mandate of Christ. All Scripture is inspired by God, and therefore Gen 9:6 is included in that, unless you want to deny the deity of Christ. I don't imagine that you do.

You are repeating things that have already been answered Matt. CAn you move us forward at all? Or just keep rehashing this old ground? </font>[/QUOTE]And why isn't Gen 4 included in the mandate of Christ? Are you not being selective? You keep on repeating things which have already been answered. If you want to ignore the teaching of Jesus as revealed in the Gospels, then that is a matter for you I suppose, but it's not where I want to be.

 

No, no selectivity at all. First, remember that there is no "mandate of Christ." There is a simple, short pericope that does not even address the death penalty. At the most, all you can say is that Jesus did not ask for the death penalty to be enforced. You can say nothing beyond that. Second, and this point continues to be unanswered by your side as far as I have seen, if Christ was addressing anything, it was a provision of the Mosaic Law regarding adultery; Gen 9 is pre law by several thousand years likely, and address murder, not adultery. So your example has nothing in common with Gen 9.

Here it is simply laid out. I don't know how the formatting will work but the comparisons are side by side. HOpefully you can figure it out.

Gen 9 John 8
Pre law Law
Murder Adultery
Direct command Story
Rooted in image of God in man No root given at all
Addressing the sanctity of human life Addressing hypocrisy.

Where? I have yet to see anyone even attempt a legitimate answer though perhaps I have missed it. Address the comparison above.

I am not ignoring that. Far to the contrary, I am insisting that we follow what it actually says. You are reading more into it then is there, all the while ignoring the direct command of Gen 9. You claim you are following Jesus but then you are willing to disobey what Jesus commanded in Gen 9. I don't get that.

 

Matt, why do you persist in these European things? Jesus says that He came to fulfill the Law, not overthrow it. Pastor Larry is correct one hundred percent!

Matthew 5:17 (KJV) Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

 

....where they will continue on occasion to kill inmates (some non violent- minor offenders) and staff (I work full time in a correctional facility). By letting a murder live to kill again, you are in a way aiding a murderer.

I have a better idea - Obedience.

 

My Dad's favorite expression:

http://www.throwawaythekey.org/