This says nothing to explain the passage isn't about Israel having an ability to choose right. Why is Jesus telling them He has waited and longed for their repentance, "yet ye WOULD not!" .
Was Jesus just flapping His lips?
Unconditional Election
Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by steaver, Dec 2, 2012.
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Deu 7:6 For thou art an holy people unto the LORD thy God: the LORD thy God hath chosen thee to be a special people unto himself, above all people that are upon the face of the earth.
7 The LORD did not set his love upon you, nor choose you, because ye were more in number than any people; for ye were the fewest of all people:
8 But because the LORD loved you, and because he would keep the oath which he had sworn unto your fathers, hath the LORD brought you out with a mighty hand, and redeemed you out of the house of bondmen, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt.
9 Know therefore that the LORD thy God, he is God, the faithful God, which keepeth covenant and mercy with them that love him and keep his commandments to a thousand generations;
God chose those Jews who continued in the faith of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. He chose the Jews because of the oath he had made to Abraham. This was not unconditional, this was because Abraham had faith and believed God's promise.
Romans 11 explains that for unbelief the elect Jews were cut off and the Gentiles because of faith are graffed in. Paul warns the Gentiles that they must continue in faith or they will likewise be cut off as the elect as well.
Biblicist claimed Romans 11 has nothing to do with election, but Albert Barnes agrees with me.
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1) The New Covenant is one of the Everlasting Covenants. True
2) The New Covenant is a conditional covenant. Whoever believes in Him shall not perish. True.
3) The New Covenant was promised before it was inaugurated. True
4) Fallen unregenerate men of flesh have the limited spiritual ability to understand and receive the milk of the gospel. True.
5) No one ascended to the third heaven, also called Paradise before Christ died. True.
6) Only after we have been spiritually placed in Christ are we regenerated, born anew, and arise a new creation in Christ. True.
7) Logical fallacies do not lend support for a point of view. True.
8) The OT saints were not made perfect, made righteous, justified before Christ died. True
9) Abraham's faith was reckoned as righteousness, but Abraham himself was not made righteous before Christ died. True.
10) The OT saints were not indwelt, i.e. that occurs in the New Covenant only. True.
Scripture makes very clear we are individually elected through faith in the truth, i.e. a conditional election. 2 Thessalonians 2:13. There is no verse that says or suggests we were chosen unconditionally. None, zip, nada. Scripture also mentions our corporate election before creation, i.e. we were chosen in Him, thus every individual chosen individually was chosen in Him corporately before the foundation of the world. -
pinoybaptist Active MemberSite Supporter
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The Biblicist Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
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Scripture makes very clear we are individually elected through faith in the truth, i.e. a conditional election. 2 Thessalonians 2:13. There is no verse that says or suggests we were chosen unconditionally. None, zip, nada. Scripture also mentions our corporate election before creation, i.e. we were chosen in Him, thus every individual chosen individually was chosen in Him corporately before the foundation of the world. -
The Biblicist Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
1. Time chosen - "from the beginning chosen you"
2. Chosen unto what? - "chosen TO salvation"
Not chosen BECAUSE OF salvation as you are teaching! But unconditional
Ephesians 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
1. Time chosen - "before the foundation of the world"
2. Reason chosen - "that we should be holy and without blame"
Not chosen BECAUSE of foreseen holiness as you are teaching but unconditional
Rom. 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)
1. Time chosen - "the children not yet born"
2. Reason chosen - "neither having done any good or evil"
3. Basis for choice - "purpose of God according to election"
Not chosen on the basis of foreseen good or evil - unconditional -
Jhn 17:20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
Jesus here explains how a person gets "in him" or "in Christ", that is, by belief.
I agree with Van about corporate election, God chose all those persons who would be "in him" or "in Christ" in time by believing on Jesus. What God chose is that they should be holy and blameless. But being "in Christ" is absolutely conditional, a person must believe to be "in him".
It says election is according to him that calleth. This is speaking of faith, this exact language is used of Abraham in Hebrews 11.
Heb 11:8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.
Abraham was elected by God calling him when he answered in faith. -
Pitchback
Reading lesson 2, they were chosen for salvation, not to salvation. Calvinism is defended by translation shopping, here we have the KJV offered as how the verse reads, not the NKJV, NASB, NEB, WEB, and HCSB.
Reading lesson 4: Those chosen corporately before the foundation of the world were chosen for salvation.
There were not chosen because they had not done anything good or bad, they were chosen so the older would serve the younger.
And again, they were not chosen based on foreseen good or evil, so yet another misrepresentation.
2 Thessalonians 2:13 makes our election for salvation very clear, we were set apart in Christ, the sanctification by the Spirit, and through faith in the true, i.e. God crediting our faith as righteousness.
Are all of God's choices conditional? Nope, but our election for salvation was conditioned on God crediting our faith as righteousness. -
2 Thessalonians 2:13, American Standard Version
13. But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, for that God chose you from the beginning unto salvation in sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
2 Thessalonians 2:13, Greens Literal Translation
13. But we ought to thank God always concerning you, brothers, beloved by the Lord, because God chose you from the beginning to salvation in sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth,
2 Thessalonians 2:13, Youngs Literal Translation
13. And we--we ought to give thanks to God always for you, brethren, beloved by the Lord, that God did choose you from the beginning to salvation, in sanctification of the Spirit, and belief of the truth,
Election is unconditional, not on the basis of either good or evil or a foreknown response!
You need to spend much time in reading comprehension before you get your teaching certificate. -
2 Thes 2:13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
We are chosen to be saved through sanctification of the Spirit AND BELIEF OF THE TRUTH.
It is you Calvinists/DoGs that need reading comprehension skills. -
The Biblicist Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
There is no corporate "salvation through sanctification by the Spirit"! There is no corporate "salvation through....beleif of the truth"! Some he NEVER KNEW in regard to salvation (Mt. 7:23) but the elect he has always foreknown (Rom. 8:29) according to His purpose of salvation (Rom. 8:28) and these are the elect (Rom. 8:32). There is no corporate justification, calling, glorification (Rom. 8:30). That is all personal, individual and by God's elective purpose before the world began. Every single solitary person the Father gives to the Son comes in faith to the Son (Jn. 6:37) and thus giving by the Father is the CAUSE of coming to the Son. And every single one the Father gives to the Son, not only comes but "I SHALL LOSE NOTHING" (Jn. 6:39) but should raise "it...him" up to the resurrection of life (Jn. 6:39,40,44) and that is PERSONAL and INDIVIDUAL and not corporate by the very nature of the personal pronouns.
7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
The children of God are SUPERNATURALLY born by promise as Isaac and prechosen by God as Jacob and that is why it is neither him that runneth or him that willeth but of God that sheweth mercy. That is why it is according to the elective Purpose of God and unconditional - not dependent upon what good or evil they will do in their lives. Just read the context and follow the argument.
When we talk about unconditional or conditional election we are talking about the CAUSE or basis for election. The Bible says it is based in "grace" (Rom. 11:5) and not in "works" (Rom. 11:6; 9:11). Grace means it is not conditioned upon you or what you do but upon God's purpose of grace. Grace = unconditional merit or basis. This is spelled out for you in Ephesians 1:4-11 over and over again
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;
9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
Election before the world is "according to his good willl....according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed IN HIMSELF....according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will" not according to conditions met by us after we are born. -
Lets go over Romans 8 yet again for the millionth time. Did God formulate a plan of redemption before creation? Yes. As part of that plan did God choose His Redeemer, His Lamb of God before creation? Yes. Did God's plan include His redeemer redeeming INDIVIDUALS FOR SALVATION? Yes When God implements this plan of redemption is it according to His foreknowledge. Yes. Did His plan including resurrecting those chosen? Yes. Thus all those individually chosen were predestined to be adopted as son!
Next lets talk about John 6. How are individuals given to Christ? The Holy Spirit puts them in Christ. Thus everyone given to Christ for salvation arrives in Christ. No mention of "coming to faith" so yet another reading lesson. And yes, once an individual is put in Christ, Christ shall in no way cast out. At least we agree on that part. :)
4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,
6 To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved.
7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;
8 Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;
9 Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
11 In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.[/QUOTE] This wonderful passage is speaking to individuals who have been individually chosen and placed in Christ. Thus Paul is listing the blessings of those in Christ, starting with being corporately chosen before creation. Another blessing is we in Christ are predestined to our bodily resurrection, our adoption as sons. Next, because of His precious blood, He has made us accepted in Christ. We also have redemption in Christ. We who are in Christ have obtained a predestined inheritance. After we believed, we were put in Christ and sealed in Christ with the Holy Spirit. This is directly referring to our conditional election for salvation.
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The Biblicist Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
However, one thing is for certain, this elective choice preceded the birth of any of God's elect from Genesis to revelation and thus is not based upon anything after the beginning found in their existence.
The ordinary use of the Greek preposition "eis" when its object is found in the accusative case (2 Thes. 2:13) is one of terminating action.
What you are saying is that election has its basis in foreseen faith when you say "election is God crediting our faith as righteousness." Also, you are confusing justification with election. Justification "is God crediting our faith as righteousness (Rom. 4:3,6).
Election does not have its basis in "our faith" but is the cause of our faith "through sanctification of the 4-65Spirit AND belief of the truth." Faith or coming to Christ is the consequence not the cause of being given to Christ by the Father in election (Jn. 6:37,39, 44-45; 65).
You are reversing cause and effects as election is the basis that we "might be sanctified" not because we are sanctified and holy before him (Eph. 1:4b). You are teaching that election is based upon foreseen good when that is precisely what Paul denies concerning the purpose of God according to election (Rom. 9:11).
1. "that ye might be" - holy and blameless - Eph. 1:4
2. "knowing....your election of God. FOR... - 1 Thes. 1:4-5
3. "to (Gr. eis) salvation through.... 2 Thes. 2:13
The identify of the repeated "those" in verse 29-30 are "the elect" in verse 32. This election is eternal, individual and personal and that is indisputably proven by the context. This is the mechanics of election to salvation.
1. ALL THINGS WORK according to His Purpose
2. Thus the elect are forenown to salvation according to that purpose
3. Thus the elect are predestinated according to that purpose
4. Thus the elect are called, justified and glorified according to that purpose.
Nothing is said here in this text about the work of the Holy Spirit but rather the work of the Father. They come to Christ because they are given to Christ by the father (v. 37) they are not given to Christ because they come but that is exactly what you are erroneously teaching here.
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Yes His plan was to choose those that believed because that was His sovereign purpose and plan![/QUOTE]
NONE are able/willing though to place faith in jesus UNLESS God first foreknew them, as the Bible plainly states that its individual Election, and that thiose whom he knew was due to Him choosing beforehand to mark them out/apart unto salvation in christ! Election upon Will of God, NOT due to him seeing our coming faith! -
Here's a fellow who was a very devout Calvinist for over 20 years, he's finally got it figured out.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oCkVZyrOKnI -
I was a devout arminian for 17 years. I was blind but now I see.
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Did God change his mind to make you a Calvinist?
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