Unconditional Election

You merely repeated what I said - giving is the cause for coming, no giving, no coming. Coming in context means to come in faith as verse 37 is placed in direct contrast to verse 36 where some saw him but did not believe and verses 37-40 is explanatory as it concludes that ALL who are given do see and come and thus believe - v. 40

36 But I said unto you, That ye also have seen me, and believe not.
37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.
38 For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.
39 And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
40 And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.


Do you see the comparison contrast between "ye" of verse 36 and "everyone" of verse 40??? The "everyone" of verse 40 are those whom he raises up at the resurrection of life "may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day." This "everyone" is the same as those given in verse 39 "I shall lose nothing but should raise it up again at the last day." "Everyone" in verse 40 is the "ALL" in verse 39 and the "ALL" in verse 37.

Hence, the "ye" in verse 36 saw and did not believe in Christ, did not come to Christ as coming to Christ is equal to believing in him as verse 39 with verse 40 proves. They did not believe because they were not given and thus they did not come. - Period!

Now read carefully what I said before making a response.

 

False! There is no "some OR all"! It is all who are given and all who are drawn come to Christ period. Verse 45 says "ALL" will be taught and "EVERYMAN" thus taught does in fact come to Christ.

1. All who are given come to Christ in faith - vv. 37-40 and verse 40 demands that coming is believing.

2. NONE can come to Christ but "him" which God draws and "him" is the one raised up and so ALL drawn are raised up.

3. ALL are taught of God - v. 45 and "EVERYONE" thus taught comes and thus all taught all come.

 

Why don't you just rewrite the text to suit you? Where in verses 44-45 does it every say "some"???? It does not!

Verse 44 denies that any man can come to Christ without first being drawn. The last part of verse 44 demands that the "him" drawn is the "him" raised to eternal life - not SOME but every single solitary "him" drawn" EQUALS the "him" raised.

44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Who will he raise up? "Him" that is drawn is the "him" who is raised up - not "some"!!!


Second, "all" in verse 45 means "all" not "some"! Who are the "all"? They are "ALL" that are taught by God. What is their response? Does Jesus say "some" who have been taught and learned come? No! He says "EVERYONE" taught and learned by the Father comes! There is no "some"!


45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

1. How many shall be taught of God? ANSWER: "ALL"
2. How many that hath heard and learned of God shall come to Christ? ANSWER: "EVERY MAN"


The word "all" and "ever man" translated the very same Greek term "pas" = ALL shall be taught of God and ALL taught "shall come"

Your "SOME" is purely imaginative and an absolute contradiction to this text.

 

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Your working hypothesis has added to these scriptures what it not only does not say but contradicts what it says. These scriptures never say "some" or imply or infer that only "some" will come that are given, drawn, taught but ALL will come who have been given, drawn and taught by the Father. NOT ONE will be lost.

Why don't you just jerk it out context and then rewrite it to suite you? Oh, you did!

1. Note that "given unto him" is synonomous with "draw him" as the words "therefore I said unto you" refers to verse 44 and the words "draw him." Thus to be drawn is to be given something by the Father.

QUESTION: what is it in the preceding verse (v. 64) are they without that must be given unto them? They are without inward ability to believe in him! Drawing is the POWER of God at work within sinners that results in "EVERY MAN" taught by God coming to Christ in faith.

64 But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
65 And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father.

 

EVERY MAN who has heard and learned do in fact "come" to Christ!

45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all [Greek "pas"] taught of God. Every man [Greek "pas"] therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

QUESTION: Who are taught of God? ANSWER: "all" are taught

QUESTION: Who among those that are taught come to Christ? ANSWER: "ALL" or "EVERYMAN" that is taught (hears, learns) comes to Christ!

You have to force "some" into the context when it does not say that, does not infer that and in fact contradicts that. That is like attempting to place "some" into verses 37-39 - can't honestly be done and yet you do it regardless!

 

The "seed" makes not difference! They all are said to have "received" the seed. The difference is due to the type of SOIL/heart! God alone prepares the heart that can recieve the seed and produce fruit.

You neither understand the overall context of Matthew 13 or the parable of the four soils. Only one soil represents true children of God and that is the fourth soil. Notice the distinctions in fruit production as it differs between children of God.

Again, Jesus explains that "to them it is not given to understand"! That is the same as saying they are not "drawn" because to draw means to be taught of God because "him" who is drawn is "him" who is raised. Because "all" who are taught is "all" (every man "pas") who comes.

The unregenerated heart is totally depraved but varies in stages of corruption. Just like the three persons Jesus rose from the dead were all equally dead but varied in conditions of corruption.

The first soil represents the worst condition of corruption - hardened - The same sun that melts the butter hardens the clay. The more exposure to the sun the harder the clay. The difference is the SUBSTANCE - clay versus butter. Likewise, the difference is the heart.

The second soil is not as hardened. It has a superficial layer while hard as a rock underneath.

The third soil is not has hardened. However, it has no environment for the gospel.

The seed makes no difference as it is the SOIL that determines the difference! Only the fourth soil has a PREPARED heart by the Father, drawn by the Father, taught by the Father, thus every man, or all with this kind of soil/heart come to Christ.

The other three soils represent LOST PROFESSORS.

Again, "him" that is drawn equals "him" that is raised - Jn. 6:44

Again, ALL taught by God equals ALL coming to Christ - Jn. 6:45

The lost man's heart is incapable of understanding:

Deut. 29:4 Yet the LORD hath not given you an heart to perceive, and eyes to see, and ears to hear, unto this day.

To be drawn by the Father means the Father gives a "heart to perceive, and eyes to see and hear to hear".

All those to whom the Father gives such a heart do believe do follow him:

Ezek. 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

The fourth soil was the ONLY soil PREPARED by God to receive the seed (gospel) - the hardness was broken up, the rocks were removed and the plowing of the Holy Spirit was deep and thus the weeds were turned under and and the variety of production differed with each child of God according to God's purpose.

To them it WAS GIVEN by the Father but to those other three soils IT WAS NOT GIVEN by the Father. The Father drew them, taught them so that they came to Christ in faith but the more light given to the unregenerated man the more hardened he becomes because his heart is like clay not like butter - only God can give a heart to perceive, see, hear and come.

 

Again, you confuse the contextual cause and effect! Giving precedes being placed spiritual in Christ as giving precedes coming and coming to Christ is an act of faith or believing in him. We are placed spiritually in Christ at the point of faith but we believe because we have first been given by the Father and it is being given that is causal to coming to Christ.

Second, you ignore the immediate context as verses 27-30 are in response to verse 26 which reads:

26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

Hence, one must first be "of my sheep" before they can believe! Being one of his sheep is explained as those the Father "gave" to him:

My Father, which gave them me,

The Son said he had other sheep who had not yet come, not yet heard but are still his Sheep in UNBELIEF whom the Father will teach and will hear because they are also GIVEN him by the Father.

Jn. 10:16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

Therefore, they are sheep by the fact they have already been given by the Father to the Son BEFORE they are actually saved. Hence, they did not become sheep by coming but they come because they have been already given to the Son by the Father:

Jn. 17:2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.

He does not say He will give eternal life to as many as believe! Rather, he says he will give eternal life to as many as THOU HAST GIVEN HIM! Because giving PRECEDES coming to Christ in faith!

 

Your conclusion above has contradicted everything you said up to this conclusion. You have completely reversed the cause and effect and made believing the cause for being given when in John 17:2 at the very beginning of this discussion he made it extremely clear that giving is the cause of coming/believing:

Jn. 17:2 As thou hast given him power over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many as thou hast given him.

Notice he did not say "to as many as believed in him" because believing in him or coming to him by faith is the consequence not the cause of being given to the Son.

1. ALL whom the Father gives the Son come to the Son - Jn. 6:37-40 - Not all who comes to the Son the Father gives but that is what you force on this scripture.

2. HIM that is drawn by the Father equals HIM that is raised up - Jn. 6:44 - Not "SOME" drawn are raised up but that is what you force on this scripture.

3. ALL taught by God equals ALL who hear and learn from God and ALL of these do come to Christ not "some" as you force on this text - Jn. 6:45

You INSERT your conditional "some" into these texts when in fact they repudiate your insertion.

 

Your conclusion directly contradicts every grammatical fact you just previously stated.

1. You claimed the new birth preceded faith in Christ - "Based on the Greek tenses, this verse says that everyone who believes in the present HAS BEEN born of God in the past." Hence, they had to be given and drawn by God first before coming to Christ in faith by your own admission. Therefore, faith cannot be the basis or cause for being given to Christ as by your own admission it is the CONSEQUENCE not the cause of being given!

2. The right to become children of God (Jn. 1:12) is due to new birth by God (Jn. 1:13) not vice versa. John 1:13 provides the CAUSE while John 1:12 describes the EFFECTS. That is precisely what you admitted 1 John 5:2 states grammatically - New birth precedes faith.

Again, note the cause versus effects! New birth precedes spiritual SIGHT and ENTRANCE not vice versa.

You INSERT "some" into this context which definantly EXCLUDES all possibility that any given fail to come and any drawn fail to come and any taught fail to come:

Jn. 6:39 And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.

QUESTION: Is there ANY that are given by the Father that fail to come and be saved? ANSWER: "OF ALL...I SHOULD LOSE NOTHING"

Jn. 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.


QUESTION: Who is the "him" that Christ raises up? ANSWER: "him" the Father draws and "NO MAN" other than the Father draws!

Jn. 6:45 It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

QUESTION: How many are taught of God? ANSWER: "ALL"

QUESTION: How man that have heard and learned of the Father come to Christ? ANSWER: "EVERY MAN...cometh unto me"

NOTE: The Old Testament reference is to Jeremiah 31:34 and "ALL" who are the New Covenant people. - Hence all the elect.

Thank you! From the beginning does not refer to creation but from the beginning "OF THE NEW COVENANT" which is from "EVERLASTING" before the world began:

Heb. 13:20 Now the God of peace, that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant,

You have thoroughly disproven your own confused position.

 

I presented Biblical evidence which YOU CANNOT DEAL WITH and so you simply ignore and make empty assertions.

I dealt contextually with Hebrews 11:39-40 but no response

I presented Acts 10:43 but no response

I presented Romans 3:25 but no response

I presneted Romans 4:3-11 but no response

You can't have your cake and eat it to! I provided solid evidence that redemption was applied (justification, remission of sins) previ:eek:us to the cross and thus if some aspects of redemption can be applied all aspects can be applied.

I presented the difference between temples in 1 Cor. 3:16 versus 1 Cor. 6:17 but no response.

You cannot deal with the Biblical data so you simply brush it off and reassert your vain, empty false assertions.

 

You are building a straw man only to burn!

I don't know who you are fighting under the term "Calvinism" but it is not me or my beliefs. I don't claim to be a follower of Calvin and in fact I reject most of what Calvin taught.

I believe we are made perfect in Christ by justification - positional imputed perfection. - Rom. 4:6-8

I believe our spirit that has been born of God (not our soul or body) is perfected so that it cannot sin as that is where the Spirit of God indwells us - 1 Jn. 3:9/Heb. 12:23

I believe our body is perfected at the resurrection.

So instead of fighting your straw man why not deal with what I say I believe as I have never claimed to be a Calvinist and never will. I believe totally different from Calvin on innumberable things. Is this your escape method by neatly classifying your opponents and making them fit within your definitions rather than dealing with what I really bellieve versus what you want me to believe????????

Stop bulding straw men and then burning them unless that helps your ego!

Anyone who claims they are presently without sin is also deceived and the truth is not in them - 1 Jn. 1:8-10/Rom. 7:14-25/Gal. 5:17

Hebrews 11:39-40 refers to the resurrection when they are "made perfect" WITH US. It has no reference to present tense salvation as all of Hebrews 11 declares they were BELIEVERS who WALKED BY FAITH and all of Romans 4 demands they were JUSTIFIED "before God" by the same faith and justification is not only being made POSITIONALLY perfect in Christ by IMPUTED righteosness of Christ but having your sins remitted (Rom. 4:6-8; Acts 10:43). Romans 3:25 explicitly states the Old Testament saints were redeemed just as we are and God applied redemption in Christ (vv. 24,26) on the basis of their faith in THE PROMISE of the coming Christ and payment for their sins.

 

I am a calvinist, and brother Van always struggles withthe concepts of Gods sovereinghty, man spiritual dead condition, and that we do NOT have real freew will left after the fall to receive jesus by our choice alone!

Hence his corporate election, sometimes Open theistic type views!

 

Van,

Your posts show that no one is quite as prolific as you at rewriting Scripture. Of course you do it so poorly that a Child can spot it!

You misrepresent the Doctrines of Faith, or Calvinism as you pejoratively label them. Scripture clearly teaches that true believers are justified by their faith. No one who you pejoratively call a Calvinist would deny that. We have a habit of believing what Scripture tells us. Try it sometime! Make you feel good!

Simply put, you and others like you continually misrepresent the Doctrines of Grace. Very sad!

I would remind you if the Cries of the Reformation in which Calvin had a small part!

From: http://notesfromdennisfischer.blogspot.com/2011/02/five-solas-battle-cry-of-protestant.html

 

I believe there is a fancy word for what Van is doing: Eisegesis!

He is also yanking your chain Biblicist.

 

:thumbsup::thumbsup:

 

More Calvinists addressing me rather than my views. I am shocked ad homenims are being thrown at me.

Charge, I rewrite scripture. Evidence. None given. :)

Charge, he is yanking your chain. Evidence. None give. :)


The topic is unconditional election. I have put up evidence and explained it. The Calvinists, who claim they are not Calvinists, go figure, have put up nothing.

Biblicist first says we are made perfect at Christs second coming, then claims he agrees with me. Shuck and jive, folks, shuck and jive. He says we have been made perfect spiritually but not physically, whereas before he denied we had been made perfect. LOL

I have addressed your [Biblicist] mistaken beliefs, one after another and even numbered them.

Lets look at his mistaken view that Hebrews 11:39-40 refers to our bodily resurrection. Hebrews 12:23 clearly teaches we are made perfect spiritually, i.e. those saved have been, past tense, been made perfect spiritually. The OT saints had to wait to be made perfect spiritually, to be washed with the blood of Jesus. This is just one of more than a dozen mistaken assertions by Biblicist that I have addressed.

 

Next, we get the "we were justified by our faith" as if we did it. This is not Calvinism. This is malarkey. God is the one who justifies the unjust. When God credits our faith in Christ as righteousness, He places us in Christ, where we undergo the circumcision of Christ and arise in Christ a new creation, justified by the blood of the Lamb. Justified by faith is shorthand for an action by God.

 

Returning to topic, 2 Thessalonians 2:13 says we were chosen for salvation through faith in the truth. This is a conditional election. Thus Calvinism is mistaken doctrine. Ephesians 1:4 says we were chosen in Him before the foundation of the world. This is our corporate election for salvation. One occurred before the foundation of the world, and the other from or after or since the beginning. Two different actions by God. Nothing has been offered to refute this obvious truth. Nothing, zip, nada.

The rewrite, from the beginning refers to before the beginning is a joke. When are our names entered in the Lamb's book of life? From the foundation of the world, not before the foundation of the world. If we had been chosen individually before the foundation of the world as Calvinism claims, then our names would have been entered then.

Verse after verse tells a simple truth, we are chosen based on God crediting our faith as righteousness. We are saved by grace, our election for salvation, through faith, God crediting our faith as righteousness. Thus salvation is all of God, and does not depend on whether we will to be saved, or do works to be saved.

Whoever believes in Him shall not perish.

God keeps his promise to those who love Him.

 

Wrong, I did provide the evidence and you are ignoring it. Your second point where you attept to READ INTO THE TEXT "some" when that reading is IMPOSSIBLE as the John 6:37-40 permits no exception; Jn 6:44 permist no exception as "him" in first sentence equals "him" in second sentence - no "some". John 6:45 permits no exceptions as "all" in the first sentence equals "everyone" (same Greek term) in second sentence.

You simply INVENT and REWRITE the scripture to fit your "some" into the text - that is unwarranted and flatly dishonest and mishandling of Scripture.

You are misquoting me, misinterpreting my words - go back to my post concerning Hebrews 11:39-40 and read it instead of perverting what I said.

I NEVER denied either they or we are not justified - positional perfection but asserted it many times. I NEVER denied we are not perfected in "spirit"- NEVER! That is your straw man imagination at work. I dealt with the immediate context and the perfection the writer of Hebrews is speaking about is a perfection that Old Testament saints do not experience "WITHOUT US" meaning we expereince it TOGETHER and that is the glorification of the body and final promise of a new Jerusalem ON EARTH. SEE BELOW FOR THE CONTEXUAL EVIDENCE THAT YOU ARE WRONG!

You have PERVERTED not only my beliefs but the Scriptures and I have spelled those perversions out in detal all of which you are not IGNORING simply because you cannot answer them or you would address them.

Reading Lesson #1 - Hebrews 11:39-40 speaks of a perfection YET TO COME when they will be perfected WITH US rather than WITHOUT US. Read the text for heavens sake and stop perverting it!

39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.


Reading lesson #2: Take note that hebrews is written AFTER THE CROSS but they have NOT YET RECEIVED IT! Hence, it is still future.

Reading lesson #3 - Take note that they will not receive it "WITHOUT US" meaning we have not yet received this promise either.


Reading Lesson #4 - The promise is spealled out previously in the text concerning Abraham that he looked ON EARTH for a city whose builder and maker is God. That occurs ON EARTH after the resurredtion - Rev. 21:1-25


13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.14 For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country.
15 And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned.
16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.


Can't spell it out much clearer than this! The promise they have yet to receive will not be received "without us" as we look for the same promise which occurs only after we are "made perfect" in the resurrection. That does not deny we are not positionally perfect by the imputed righteousness of Christ as they were equally justified - READ ROMANS 4!!!!!!!!!

 

Sounds similar to something Martyn Lloyd-Jones wrote!