Unconditional Election

No it does not! It is salvation that is conditioned not election. They were chosen for salvaiton and salvation is through setting apart by the Spirit AND belief of the truth. The object of the verb chosen is salvation while the prepositional phrase "through......" modifies salvation and not chosen!

That is a flat lie! I have provided several instances of the phrase "from the beginning" in the New testament which cannot possibly be assumed to refer to creation or the the beginning of the world! Your response? ZERO!

The text does not use the term "world" or "creation" that is YOU rewriting the text to fit YOUR theology. Your response? ZERO

You admitted my interpretation was correct and placed it in brackets yourself in the very text! The New Covenant was not invented at the cross but the writer of Hebrews speaking of Christ's blood says it is the blood of the "EVERLASTING covenant"! What part of the word "everlasting" do you not understand? Ratification and institution of the covenant are not one and the same as the ratification occurred on the cross but the institution was from "everlasting"! Hence, "from the beginning" refers to the institution of the covenant - "EVERLASTING" which is one and the same thing as saying "before the world began."

 

Who are you making this charge against? I NEVER said "we did it." What I said was they were justified by faith just as we are and that is precisely what Paul teaches in Romans 4:21-25. I said that justification by faith is God imputing to us the righteousness found only in Christ. God has provided no other source of righteousness to be justified "before" him. There is no righteousness, no salvation, no redemption, no savior, OUTSIDE OF CHRIST for anyone at anytime!

You are the one confusing justification with election. Election has nothing to do with imputation of righteous at all! Election has to with choosing those whom the Father gives to the Son to give eternal life - Read John 17:2.

You don't know the difference between justification and election.

Reading lesson #1 - Look at the definition of "elect" versus the definition of "justify" if you want a clue to their difference.

 

Hi Biblicist, you are wasting my time. To claim 2 Thessalonians 2:13 does not say they were chosen through faith in the truth is beyond rationality.

Next you claim I did not say Ephesians 1:4 reads before the foundation of the world, and 2 Thessalonians reads from the beginning. No need to waste any more time on you.

Folks, Biblicist offers more false assertions that you can shake a stick at. But as far as addressing conditional election, he simple says 2 Thessalonians 2:13 does not say "God has chosen you from the beginning for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth."

But to hide this outright denial of obvious truth, he drags every point of the TULIP into the discussion, attacks me personally, and misrepresents my views.

Conditional election for salvation is taught throughout scripture. Whoever believes means whoever believes, not whoever God gives the gift of faith to.

1 Peter 1:1-2 demonstrates we are chosen through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, thus the phrase through the sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth applies to being chosen, not salvation. Calvinists violate the syntax of the verse, 2 Thessalonians 2:13, to claim the "through" phrase modifies salvation rather than chosen. Typical rewrite. Every verse that shows Calvinism is mistaken doctrine is nullified.

And to hide their nullification they charge me with adding "some" to scripture. Nonsense. They cannot read. They cannot discern the difference between everyone that is drawn comes to me, and everyone that comes to me has been drawn. LOL

 

Conditional Election

Calvinists deny the validity of conditional election on these grounds:
(1) Because of the Calvinist’s acceptance of their doctrine of Total Spiritual Inability, they say man is incapable of the faith needed for God to use it as satisfying His conditional for election to salvation.
(2) Saving faith, faith satisfying God’s supposed conditional, is a gift God gives to the previously chosen person.
(3) Faith is a work and therefore cannot be a conditional for a salvation not of works.

But let’s see if there is any merit whatsoever in any of these so-called problems with conditional election.

Total Spiritual Inability is demonstrated to be false doctrine by Matthew 13:20-22, where unregenerate men, in their natural fallen state, receive the gospel with joy. This demonstrates they have some spiritual ability, and therefore the doctrine of total spiritual inability is unbiblical. Further, what level of faith is required? Only a faith that God accepts and credits as righteousness, it need not have any merit of or by itself. Paul teaches that our faith in Christ provides our access to the grace in which we stand, Romans 5:2, clearly supporting that we are saved by grace through faith, and not of works.

Ephesians 2:8-9 does not say nor suggest that faith is a gift; the idea is that salvation is
The gift. We are saved by grace through faith, and that not of ourselves, it is a gift and not of works. The pronoun “that” is not in the same gender as faith, so according to Greek grammar, “that” does not point to faith or grace, but to the resultant salvation.

And while it is true that placing ones faith in Christ is a “work” it is not “works” whereby salvation is earned by doing works over time. Jesus makes this distinction between works and the work of believing in Christ, in John 6:29. The meaning of the phrase, “work of God” is not something God does, but rather something God requires, because Jesus is answering the question, what “work” shall we do.

Bottom line, the so-called problems are based on misunderstanding selected verses, rather than anything of merit.

Now the Arminians assert that God’s election unto salvation occurred before the foundation of the world, based on Ephesians 1:4, with God foreseeing individuals who would trust in Christ. But this puts election (whether Calvinist’s unconditional view, or the Arminian conditional election view) before anyone has lived without mercy. And since 1 Peter 2:9-10 puts our election after we live without mercy, our individual election must occur during our physical lives. And this is precisely what James 2:5 says, God chooses the poor of the world, rich in faith, and heirs to the kingdom which He promised to those who love Him. Consider 2 Thessalonians 2:13, which says, we are chosen for salvation through…faith in the truth. The phrase “for salvation” describes the purpose of the choice, and the phrases “through sanctification by the Spirit and faith in the truth” describes “how” we were chosen so it is an adverbial clause modifying the verb chose and not the noun “salvation.”

Matthew 13:20-22 provides insight into this faith or trust in Christ; the conviction must be firm, heart-felt, and not rootless such that it is abandoned when difficulties arise. And the faith and devotion to Christ cannot be “half-hearted” with other worldly treasures, either possessions or relationships, sharing a place in our heart’s devotion. We are to love God and our Lord Jesus with all our heart, all our mind and all our understanding. Or as a modern phrase from Texas Hold-em would say, we must go “all in” with all our chips for Christ.

 

Evidence of Conditional Election

Based on the premise that our individual election, God choosing you or me as a specific individual for salvation, occurs during our lifetime based on God accepting our love and commitment to Christ as sufficient for His purpose, lets look at scripture to see if this view is reflected in scripture.

James 2:5 indicates that God chooses the poor based on the world’s value system, but folks that are rich in faith to be heirs of the kingdom, which He promised to those who love Him. Well, well, that seems to mesh nicely with the premise! Clearly no matter whether the choice is made during the lifetime of the individual, or based on the foreseen condition of the individual, the choice is based on the characteristics of the individual, someone although having little in the way of material wealth who is “rich” in faith, who loves Jesus.

Matthew 19:16-26 indicates that folks must turn loose of all their worldly treasures and trust only in Jesus in order to enter the kingdom of God. Again, clearly teaching that our heart attitude contributes to gaining entrance to the kingdom of God.

1 Corinthians 1:18-31 indicates that if we hold ourselves in high regard, thinking of ourselves – I am wise, I am educated, my PhD trumps your high school diploma – we are adhering to the wisdom of the world. But through the wisdom of the world, we will not come to know God, verse 21. Instead, if we hold ourselves in low regard, thinking of ourselves – I am foolish, I make mistakes, I am a sinner, helpless to save myself – we are ready to accept the gospel of Christ crucified. Thus again, our heart condition contributes to gaining entrance to the kingdom of God. And God did this, chose folks of humility to shame those who are wise in their own eyes, verses 26-29. Again, clearly teaching that God chooses folks for salvation based at least in part on their heart condition, hence a conditional election.

 

Your right! It is a waste of time to discuss something with an irrational person. You don't know simple grammar. You insert words into texts which are not there and then beliltte anyone who points out the obvious! Your right! It is a waste of time.

 

Arminians cannot win the argument with scriptures - and never will. Therefore, they always, and I mean always retreat eventually to philosophical arguments - the wisdom of men to deny unconditional election.

I took apart your flimsy and inaccurate expositions of John 6 and John 10 and John 17. You could not respond to my expositionary arguments which were detailed and so you simply ignore them and make empty assertions that you answered them. Well, the readers on this forum know you NEVER addressed them at all but ran as fast as you could from them.

 

election in accordance with the New Covenant is foreshadowed in the Old Testament, so lets look at some of these verses.

Psalm 65:4 says some are blessed because they are chosen by God to be brought near to God, and to dwell in God’s courts. This certainly mirrors the idea of being spiritually placed “in Christ” and thus receiving the blessings of being “in Christ” which include spiritually being in God’s heavenly places (courts) and being made alive together with Christ (brought near).

Jeremiah 31:31 says God will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and the house of Judah. These “houses’ are made up of individuals who believe in God and believe in God’s promises, and so the New Covenant is with individual believers. Paul teaches in Galatians chapter 3 that even Gentile believers that belong to Christ become “in Christ” children of the promise .

Turning now to the New Testament, the Greek words (transliterated) “ekleklos” and “ekloge” appear a total of 30 times and are translated “chosen,” “elect” or “election.”

Matthew 22:14 uses the term to identify that while many are called or invited, few are “chosen.” The idea is that while some might be willing to come to Christ based on hearing the invite, not everyone is “chosen” because not everyone’s heart fully trusts in Christ.

Matthew 24:22 uses the term to identify that the tribulation of end times will be cut short for the sake of those chosen by God who are alive at the time.

Matthew 24:24 uses the term to identify during end times, false Christs and false prophets will show great signs and wonders sufficient to deceive even the “elect” living at the time, if possible.

Matthew 24:31 uses the term to identify that at Christ’s second coming, His angels will gather the “elect” from wherever they are. Thus the “elect” of the New Covenant belong to Christ.

Mark 13:20, 22 and 27 mirror the Matthew 24 usages.

Luke 18:7 uses the term to identify that God will give justice to His “elect” who cry to Him day and night. The idea here is that after we are in Christ, Christ intercedes for us, and thus we can confidently approach the throne of grace.

Luke 23:35 uses the term to identify that Jesus is the “Chosen One” of God, the Christ.

Acts 9:15 uses the term to identify that Paul was God’s “chosen” instrument to bear His name before Gentiles, Kings, and the sons of Israel.

Romans 8:33 uses the term to identify that the “elect” are “in Christ” and therefore holy and blameless, so that no charge can be brought because we are justified by God Almighty.

Romans 11:5 uses the term to identify that a remnant has come to be according to God’s gracious choice, indicating that the choice that produced the remnant occurred in the present.

Romans 11:7 uses the term to identify that while the blood descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob (the Jews) were seeking to obtain the fulfillment of the promises of God, only those whose heart was committed to God were chosen and the rest hardened.

Romans 16:13 uses the term to identify that Rufus was a choice man in the Lord, signifying not only that Rufus had been chosen and placed spiritually in the Lord, but also he was a faithful and diligent servant, thus a choice servant.

Colossians 3:12 uses the term to identify that the Colossians had been chosen of God, and therefore as someone predestined to be conformed to the image of Christ, they should put on a heart of compassion, humility and patience.

1 Thessalonians 1:4 uses the term to identify that Paul knows that God chose them, because He personally witnessed their conversion. This verse is directly applicable to God’s election of individuals to salvation in accordance with the New Covenant.

2 Thessalonians 2:13 says God chose through faith in the truth, i.e. a dead bang conditional election for salvation.

1 Timothy 5:21 uses the term to identify that angels affiliated with Christ, the Chosen One, are referred to as chosen angels.

2 Timothy 2:10 uses the term to identify that Paul endures all things for the sake of those who are chosen, so that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus and with it, eternal glory. The idea here is that Paul plants and waters, enduring all sorts of hardships, for the sake of those whose faith, nurtured by Paul, God accepts and credits as righteousness for the purpose of salvation and eternal glory in Christ Jesus.

Titus 1:1 uses the term to identify that Paul is a bondservant of Christ because his ministry is for the faith of those chosen by God.

1 Peter 1:1 uses the term to identify that the people living at the time had been chosen by God according to His foreknown plan by means of being set apart by the Holy Spirit, after having believed in Christ, who is called Truth.

1 Peter 1:20 uses the term to identify that Jesus was chosen as the Christ before the foundation of the world, and therefore God has known this from before the foundation of the world.

1 Peter 2:4 uses the term to identify that Jesus is choice and precious in the sight of God. Paul’s description of Rufus mirrors this usage by Peter concerning Christ.

1 Peter 2:9 uses the term to identify that we were once not a chosen people, and therefore we once lived without mercy, but now we are God’s chosen people, and we have obtained mercy.

2 John 1:1uses the term to identify that either a particular lady, or figuratively the local church being addressed was chosen by God.

2 John 1:13 uses the term to identify that either another lady with John or figuratively the local church with which John was fellowshipping at the time of writing

Revelation 17:14 uses the term to identify that those gathered by Christ at His second coming are the called and chosen and faithful, clearly indicating born again believers were first invited, then chosen based on responding to the invitation, then faithful serve our Lord, demonstrating our faith by our works.

 

One common characteristic of folks pushing mistaken views, is they claim to have done something in the unreferenced past. Actually the attempt to rebut my discussion of "All the Father gives to Me" was without merit. But the key thing to see is it is off topic, changing the subject from Conditional Election.

 

Here is the argument! Coming to Jesus is not equal with believing in Him. As I indicated if God credits a person's faith as righteousness, then He gives the person to Christ. The argument is simply a rewrite changing coming to Christ into believing in Christ. LOL

 

Your argument is false! Coming to Christ is INCLUSIVE of beleiving in him and John 6:64-65 proves that.

Take note of verse 64 that it is lack of faith that is missing in professed believers.

That lack of faith is then attributed by Christ to not being drawn by the Father in verse 65. In verse 65 "except it be given to him" is the Lord's interpretation of "draw" in verse 44 as he is referencing verse 44 in verse 65.

The "therefore" in verse 65 grammatically connects verse 64 and the absence of true faith with verse 64. Drawing is the Divine side while coming is the human side. When you draw in your fishing line it comes to you. The power is in the one drawing.

This is so simple and so clear one must intentionally misinterpret it to miss it and I am sure you will misconstrue it purposely in order to fit your false doctrine.

 

This statement is an absolute joke! There is not one single text in scripture to support such a doctrine. You don't know the difference between election and justification.

"from the beginning" in 2 Thessalonians 2:13 cannot be construed in any possible way to refer to the point of faith in the gospel.

The prepositional phrase "through......." modifies "salvation" not "chosen"! But what do you care about simple English grammar! Nothing! You must force your interpretation by rewriting the text to make it fit your false doctrine.

 

What an outright lie! I said no such thing. It is YOUR INTERPRETATION of the verse I object to not what Paul actually says.

Remember, drawing includes internal work of the Father as the CAUSE for coming/believing in Christ - Jn. 6:45 interpreted by John 6:65. Regardless of what you say faith is a gift of God (Eph. 2:8) the fruit of the Spirit (Gal. 5:22) and a product of regeneration (1 Jn. 5:1). Simply put Jesus is THE AUTHOR of faith (Heb. 12:2).

2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

Romans 8:28-29 clearly shows that foreknowledge (v. 29) is based upon God's purpose of salvation (v. 28). Just as a builder knows in advance where every room in a house is located because he builds according to his blue print - not vice versa.

Election is "according to foreknowlege" which is based upon God's eternal purpose of redemption but "through" again refers to the instrumental means whereby the elect are obtained by God in time "through sanctification of the Spirit" or REGENERATION. Sanctification of the Spirit means setting apart by the Spirit through regeneration which in turn is the immediate cause of faith as 1 Jn. 5:1 shows in the grammar and as you admitted it shows.

If election occurs at the time of sanctification by the Spirit then so does foreknowledge as election is "according to foreknowledge" NOT ACCORDING TO SANCTIFICATION of the Spirit! Reread what I just said as you argument is complete nonsense and again contradictory to the grammar in this text.

Election and foreknowledge are OUTSIDE OF TIME whereas sanctification and beleif are IN TIME.

It is the grammar and you can't change it! It is the grammar in 1 Peter 1:2 as well as in 2 Thes. 2:13 and there is nothing you can say that changes the grammar. You are the one rewriting the text by ignoring the grammar.

In 1 Pet. 1:2 election is NOT ACCORDING TO sanctification of the Spirit but according to "foreknowlege" which has its origin BEFORE TIME while sanctification by the Spirit has its origin IN TIME. They are not elect according to sanctification of the Spirit as you are forcing this verse to say.

In 2 Thes. 2:13 the prepositional phrase "through sanctification....and....." modifies "salvation" not "chosen." Like it or lump it that is the grammar. Your interpretation repudiates the Holy Spirit's chosen syntax.

First you don't have the intellectual honesty to admit that "some" is not found in John 6:44-45 any more than it is found in John 6:37-40.

Second, John 6:44-45 deny that ANYONE drawn, taught by the Father fails to come. Hence, your "some" idea is an absolute contradiction to Christ's words.

Third, you cannot deal with the detailed evidence against this that I have presented so you do what everyone whose conscience is seared against a truth and that is ridicule as that is the only weapon left in your arsenal.

 

Readers compare Van's responses to mine! He makes sweeping assertions without any exegetical basis whereas I respond with exegetical based evidence. He simply ridicules rather than makes any attempt to deal with the exegetical based evidences presented against his wild interpretations.

 

It has already been noted Mark....a long time ago!

 

That is quite common among those who want to ignore what Scripture teaches about the Doctrines of Grace.

 

Pitchback

Total nonsense, demonstrating nothing. The so-called Calvinist gift of faith is fiction, and is not found in scripture.
Coming to Jesus in John 6:37 actually means arriving in Jesus, thus a change in location is required, from being not in Christ, to being in Christ. This is what the verse says, and it says nothing about "coming to faith." Calvinism is a house of cards built on rewriting scripture to say the opposite of what it says.

Words have meanings. Those whose faith in Christ is credited as righteousness by God are the ones given to Christ, i.e. set apart in Christ, the sanctification by the Spirit.

It is God who knows what is hidden in our hearts and therefore it is God who decides whether to credit our faith as righteousness or not, and if He does, then He puts the person in Christ. Thus "no one can come to me" meaning being placed spiritually in Christ by God, unless the Father credits the faith as righteousness, i.e. granting the action of placing the person in Christ.

Drawing is nowhere in the passage, Calvinism simply rewrites the passage to conform to the mistaken doctrine. LOL

 

OR and EWF are long on disparaging others but offers nothing as far as supporting unconditional election. Go figure.

Biblicist says coming to Jesus means coming to faith. That is not exegetical, that is simply changing the meaning of the phrase. LOL

Returning to topic, Conditional Election is taught throughout the New Testament, i.e. John 3:16, 2 Thessalonians 2:13, James 2:5, 1 Cor. 1:26-30, Romans 11:5. Unconditional election for salvation is never taught. The election of Jacob and Esau was not for salvation but was unconditional in that they had not done anything good or bad, but note God did choose the younger so that the older would serve him.

The doctrine of Unconditional Election for salvation has no actual support in scripture. Calvinism is based on shoddy bible study.

 

if that is so then why don't you deal with the evidence I presented for it in John 6:64-65?

Again, you make an empty unsubstantiated assertion and then go to ridicule as your own response!

This is a debate forum! Try entering into the discussion!

 

if that is so then why don't you deal with the evidence I presented for it in John 6:64-65?

Again, you make an empty unsubstantiated assertion and then go to ridicule as your only response!

This is a debate forum! Try entering into the discussion![/QUOTE]

Again, you make EMPTY and unsubstatianted assertions! I presented evidence which you completely avoid and then ridicule but can't reasonably respond to.

Nearly every TV evangelist uses the phrase "come to Jesus" by which they mean "believe" or "trust" in him.

Jesus says "come unto me all ye that are burdened and heavy laden and I will give you rest" - this is a common expression in scripture to mean trust and believe in Christ.

Again, John 6:64 declares the missing element in many of his disciples was true FAITH in him. John 6:65 says that "it" must be given to them by the Father and "it" would have for its nearest antecedent "believe" in verse 64.

Again, John 6:65 interprets "draw" in John 6:44 to be the Father giving faith to come to Christ as "everyone" whom hears and learns of the Father does in fact come to Christ in faith (Jn. 6:45).