1. Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Featured Understanding Acts 13:48

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Van, Jan 11, 2023.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2005
    Messages:
    13,090
    Likes Received:
    1,705
    Faith:
    Baptist
    And yet none agree with Van’s interpretation of an agreement by mutual consent.

    Brother, be convinced in your own mind and I’ll do the same.

    peace to you
     
  2. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    27,453
    Likes Received:
    1,048
    Faith:
    Baptist
    If the voice is middle, then those appointed participated in their appointment. Why misrepresent the link?
    if we consider that the Greek participle is in the middle voice, a completely different understanding emerges. In this case, the terms would not be translated as “appointed” or “ordained” but as something closer to “marshalled themselves, prepared themselves, or disposed themselves” (Alford, The Greek New Testament, II:153; Shank, Elect in the Son, 87). ​
     
    • Winner Winner x 1
  3. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    27,453
    Likes Received:
    1,048
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Since scholars disagree as to whether tasso is in the middle or passive voice, and thus the designation is arbitrary, what would be the usual default position? Middle!

    Is the agent of the action identified as someone other than the subject? Not in Acts 13:48. It does not read, as many as were appointed by God to eternal life believed. That is an agenda driven interpenetration. Since no agent of the action is given, that contextual feature points to the verb being middle voice.

    Is there a direct object of the verb? Yes "appointed to eternal life." Again this points to the voice being middle.

    The claim no scholar is of the opinion "tasso" in Acts 13:48 is in the middle voice, thus an arrangement by mutual consent is bogus.
     
  4. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2005
    Messages:
    13,090
    Likes Received:
    1,705
    Faith:
    Baptist
    The designation of the passive is not arbitrary. It is considered passive because Greek scholars agree that is how it used in the context of the other words around it.

    What these folks are saying is that it could be used, rarely, in the middle voice in completely different context. Notice how often they say “if” it’s translated as middle, acknowledging a departure of established norms.

    Your repeated assertion it means an agreement by mutual consent has not been supported by a single person you have quoted.

    If you think your analysis is correct, submit a paper for peer review by people that are actual experts.

    You are literally ignoring your own advice that speculation is the mother of false doctrine.

    peace to you
     
  5. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    27,453
    Likes Received:
    1,048
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Utter nonsense, since scholars are divided, the choice is arbitrary.

    Middle voice is the majority voice, not passive between the two voices.

    Your assertion the middle voice does not mean they agreed with the arrangement and believed is absurd nonsense

    I linked to many sources, and you seem unable to grasp the fact.

    You are the one who speculated that their was not widespread published support for my view, in order to support your doctrine.

    Is the agent of the action identified? Nope - thus middle voice is indicated.
    Does the verb have a direct object? Yes, thus middle voice is indicated.
     
    #65 Van, Jan 15, 2023
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2023
  6. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 29, 2020
    Messages:
    10,911
    Likes Received:
    1,458
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Scholars are not divided. Haters of God's Sovereignty desire to create controversy where there is none in an attempt to lift up man and cast down God.
     
    • Useful Useful x 1
  7. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 29, 2020
    Messages:
    10,911
    Likes Received:
    1,458
    Faith:
    Baptist
    The voice is not middle as the phraseology makes the verse sound silly and the context shows it is not in the middle. But lovers of men as sovereign over God truly want it to be middle voice.
     
  8. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    27,453
    Likes Received:
    1,048
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Folks yet another taint so, ignoring all the linked views provided.
     
  9. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    27,453
    Likes Received:
    1,048
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Yet another taint so based on personal incredulity, a fallacious argument.

    Is the agent of the action identified? Nope - thus middle voice is indicated.
    Does the verb have a direct object? Yes, thus middle voice is indicated.
     
  10. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    27,453
    Likes Received:
    1,048
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Therefore Acts 13:48 can be interpretatively translated as:

    Acts 13:48, Yet the Gentiles hearing this rejoiced and glorified the word of the Lord, and as many as were in agreement with the direction into everlasting life believed.

    1) As many as "had embraced the direction, or guidance, or arrangement" for eternal life believed.

    2) Who had established the requirement and needed submission to that requirement for eternal life? Paul conveying the Gospel of Christ.

    3) Who accepted rather than rejected (see verse 46) Paul's inspired message? Some of the Gentiles.

    Thus the natural, contextual interpretation can be rejected, but God's message of opportunity shines as the light to the world.
     
    • Funny Funny x 1
  11. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 29, 2020
    Messages:
    10,911
    Likes Received:
    1,458
    Faith:
    Baptist
    This translation makes man glorious and tears away at the Supremacy of God.
     
    • Useful Useful x 1
  12. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Sep 23, 2018
    Messages:
    16,621
    Likes Received:
    1,275
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Acts 13:46-49, ". . . But Paul and Barnabas spoke boldly and said, It was necessary for the word of God to first be spoken to you°. But since you° are shoving it away from yourselves and are judging yourselves not worthy of everlasting life. Behold, how we are turned to the Gentiles. For* so the Lord has commanded to us, saying, ‘I have placed you* for a light of the Gentiles, for you to be* for salvation to the outermost parts of the earth.’ And while the Gentiles are hearing this, they were rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and they believed as many as were appointing themselves toward everlasting life. Now the word of the Lord was being carried through the whole region. . . ." MLV
     
  13. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2005
    Messages:
    13,090
    Likes Received:
    1,705
    Faith:
    Baptist
    You are simply rewriting scripture to adhere to your biased theology.

    Speculation is the mother of false doctrine.

    peace to you
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Funny Funny x 1
  14. AustinC

    AustinC Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 29, 2020
    Messages:
    10,911
    Likes Received:
    1,458
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Read that translation and tell me how God is glorified and lifted up as Supreme. You won't find it in that translation. Instead, you find man being lifted up and glorified while God is being lessened.
    Do you really think that Luke would purposely lift up man?
    Come now, just read how bad that translation is, which you just posted.

    Look at what it says about itself:
    "Modern Literal Version of the New Testament (MLV)
    The World's Most Accurate English Bible Translation.
    The ONLY bible translation OPEN for any to recommend simple fixes or corrections.


    Do you see how crazy that version is? And you had the idea that quoting it would legitimize your argument? It's an open source document that anyone can make changes to. That's crazy.

    Modern Literal Version World's Most Accurate Bible(MLV)
     
    #74 AustinC, Jan 15, 2023
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2023
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Informative Informative x 1
  15. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2020
    Messages:
    6,716
    Likes Received:
    514
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I am curious as to how you think someone responding to the gospel message is wrong? Van stated that he interpretatively translated Acts 13:48. It appears that you are rejecting the context of the verse. So which one is adhering to a biased position?

    Salvation is offered; the word is received
    Act 2:40 And with many other words he testified and exhorted them, saying, "Be saved from this perverse generation."
    Act 2:41 Then those who gladly received his word were baptized; and that day about three thousand souls were added to them.

    The Lord adds many who believe
    Act 2:47 ... And the Lord added to the church daily those who were being saved.
    Act 5:14 And believers were increasingly added to the Lord, ...

    Believers were added to the Lord
    Act 11:21 And the hand of the Lord was with them, and a great number believed and turned to the Lord.

    The Lord appoints Paul His minister; Paul obeys
    Act 26:16 But rise and stand on your feet; for I have appeared to you for this purpose, to make you a minister and a witness both of the things which you have seen and of the things which I will yet reveal to you.
    Act 26:17 I will deliver you from the Jewish people, as well as from the Gentiles, to whom I now send you,
    Act 26:18 to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.'

    God sends; the Gentiles hear
    Act 28:28 "Therefore let it be known to you that the salvation of God has been sent to the Gentiles, and they will hear it!"
     
  16. Alan Gross

    Alan Gross Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 16, 2018
    Messages:
    5,603
    Likes Received:
    458
    Faith:
    Baptist
    maybe it's purified by fire the eighth time.

    Psalms 12:6 - King James Bible
    https://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org › Psalms-12-6

    "The words of the LORD are pure words:
    as silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times. ...

    Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever...."
     
    • Like Like x 1
  17. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 14, 2020
    Messages:
    6,716
    Likes Received:
    514
    Faith:
    Baptist
    In the past, God predestined the salvation of the Gentiles. In many places in the Old Testament Scriptures God reveals that the blessing of salvation is for the Gentiles also (e.g., Gen_12:1-3; Isa_42:6; Isa_49:6).

    When they in faith accept Christ, he grants them the gift of eternal life. When the Gentiles in Pisidian Antioch put their faith in Jesus Christ, they appropriate eternal life for themselves.

    The text reveals the proverbial two sides of the same coin: God's electing love and man's believing response (cf Php_2:12-13). Even though this text features the main verb to believe, it also teaches the doctrine of divine election. Note that Luke says “[The Gentiles] were appointed to eternal life.” He does not say that they were appointed to believe.
    What concerns him is that eternal life is not only received by faith, but is essentially the plan of God.” Baker's New Testament Commentary

    In the NT we find “to determine” in Act_15:2, “to appoint” in Act_28:23, and “to order” in Mat_28:16. God orders or appoints (passive voice) in Act_22:10. Christians are ordained to eternal life in Act_13:48; conferring of status rather than foreordination is the point. TDNT Theological Dictionary of the New Testament
     
  18. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2005
    Messages:
    13,090
    Likes Received:
    1,705
    Faith:
    Baptist
    You always deliberately misstate what I believe. Please don’t respond to my posts.

    peace to you
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  19. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    27,453
    Likes Received:
    1,048
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Once again this fiction is regurgitated. I did not change a word of the underlying text, but simply grammatically interpreted tasso to the best of my ability. Am I the only one holding this view? Nope, lots of sources such as post #72 reflect this view.
     
  20. Van

    Van Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 4, 2011
    Messages:
    27,453
    Likes Received:
    1,048
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Yet another obviously bogus claim, claiming the exact opposite of the translation:
    Acts 13:48, Yet the Gentiles hearing this rejoiced and glorified the word of the Lord, and as many as were in agreement with the direction into everlasting life believed.

    This translation correctly translates tasso, thus presenting God's actual word.

    Here is the MLV translation of Acts 13:48:
    And while the Gentiles are hearing this, they were rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and they believed as many as were appointing themselves toward everlasting life.
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
Loading...