My good friend over at thirstytheologian.com made this post the other day.
Now some think this is to strong of a statement. I guess it all depends on how you define heretic. Now it is not my goal to upset anyone. I'm not sure I even agree with the label. But he does make some good points to consider.
Feedback please.
[snipped title to eliminate the perjorative "heresy" - a word we DO NOT use on the BB simply because we hold to a different position]
Unlimited Atonement
Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Jarthur001, Jan 19, 2011.
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You're on a real crusade huh?
My thoughts are anything supported biblicaly that is orthodox is not heresy.
I do agree with the 4 point calvinism statement.
Instead of continually starting new thread questioning the salvation of the non reformed, why not just come out of the closet on one? -
In his book Unity in Action, John MacArthur teaches that:
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The problem that I see with Cals and this position is that they totally discard the sacrificial system God set forth under OT law.
There was an atonement made once a year for the whole nation of Israel, offered by the high priest. But was the whole nation of Israel saved? NO! Not only did there have to be an atonement for the sins of the people, but each person had to have faith in God in order to accepted as righteous by God. Abraham believed God and it was accounted as righteousness. (Grace through faith). The Bible does not say "grace through atonement".
This is a picture or shadow of a better covenant in which Christ (the high priest) offered His own blood once for all (never to be repeated).
Will all be saved by the atonement? NO. Only those who....yes..you guessed it....have faith in God, in Christ, in His shed blood will be saved, just as faith was also required under the old covenant.
This is so clear. I just do not understand why some cannot see it.
I am also sick and tired of being accused of heresy because I do not agree with all 5 petals of the tulip. I used to love tulips, but now I think I'm going to plant something else in my garden. -
Also, how does the Calvinist explain limited atonement in this verse:
2 Peter 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
These guys are going to hell. How is that possible? The Lord "bought" them.
"Bought them" is another term for atoned for their sins. -
No, bought them refers to what God did when He delivered them from Egypt. Peter is talking about Jews.
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Instead God uses the analogy of the master/slave. God created man. All men owe their allegiance/submission to Him. These unregenerate (though claioming to be "christian") show they never did submit to the Master and are still hell-bound.
Words have meaning. Not what WE think they mean, but what GOD said.
Bottom line - if Jesus atones (actually pays, redeems, suffers hell, covers sin, etc) for a sin then let it be clear that such a sin is atoned for! Period. End of issue. Jesus did it. It is a done deal. Whether we like it, believe it, agree with it or not does not change the fact that God the Son atoned for it and God the Father accepted this atonement.
To say "it is up to man" or it is not really atoned for is blasphemous against the Person and work of God the Son and cannot be tolerated. -
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pinoybaptist Active MemberSite Supporter
I personally believe that they are redeemed, bought by the blood of Christ for eternal glory, BUT, here in time, they chose disobedience, children of God being the only humans with true free choice to obey or disobey, and the natural result of disobedience is destruction. -
About the atonement in the OT, this is something I see a lot. People will say that atonement was made for believers and unbelievers alike. Those people completely ignore the fact that this picture of Christ's work was only performed for one group of people on the entire planet: the Jews. If you want to make such a big deal about it being for everyone in existence without exception, you've got a big problem right there. God left everybody else out in the OT.
Now, if you want to agree that it is a picture, that's a whole lot better. I would then ask what Israel pictured and the Gentiles who were totally left out pictured. -
I feel like unlimited atonement is not taught in scripture, they disagree. Simple as that.
We have a new pastor at our church who uses the ESV, a good translation. I was concerned about this since it is seems to be the preferred choice for Calvinists until he assured me he is not of the reformed persuasion. Good thing, since I don't want to leave our church. But, if his answer had been yes, mine response would have been, see ya! -
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A just God can only demand payment for a sin once (or He would not be "just"). IF Jesus actually paid for every sin of every man, then every man would go to heaven. It is a heresy (word used correctly and allowed) of "universalism" - teaching all men are saved.
All those for whose sins Jesus atoned will go to heaven. The rub comes with those who think of atonement is provisional or potential and not real - dependent on MAN to DO something (believe, apply it, etc)
No one is questioning that the death of Jesus COULD have atoned for every sin of every man. But it did not. It was sufficient for all the world (term for Gentiles as well as Jews) and not just Jews as I John 2 points out - a radical change from the Jewish mindset that considered salvation in their realm alone and one had to become a Jew to really have sin atoned for.
The atonement was for those whom God loved and gave to His Son from eternity past. All others will "die in their sins", be judged and condemned. No atonement for their sin was made. -
Bro. James Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
I can pretty well agree with many accountable adults names were not written in the Book of Life before the foundation of the world. In fact there are many who have lived and died on this globe never having heard the Gospel. If Jesus died for everyone, it did not work. Somehow man thinks he can help save himself.
I am having difficulty explaining what happens to those aborted, retarded, stillborn and others who never reach the age of accountability. I am thinking they are in The Book regardless.
Selah,
Bro. James -
Thanks Bob,
I really did overlook the title. I did a cut and paste without thinking. -
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Atonement was made on behalf of Israel. Was every Jew saved and bound for heaven because of this atonement? How about Judas? Was he a Jew? Was he an Israelite? Was the once a year atonement made on his behalf? Did he go to heaven? -
I believe Dr. Bob has been here long enough to recognize this but for whatever reason continues to use it.
Non-Calvinistic Christians believe in a conditional substitutionary atonement, which simply means that God provides atonement for the sin of all mankind, but the application of that atonement is conditioned upon faith (i.e. "whosoever believes in Him will not perish").
This is a viable, biblically supported and historically orthodox Christian view of the atonement that doesn't fit the false dichotomy of either Universalism or Calvinism's view of Limited Atonement.
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