1. Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Walter Martin & his assessment of SDA's

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by pythons, Sep 1, 2019.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    46,031
    Likes Received:
    2,295
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Jesus took on sinless humanity, the same Humanity Adam had before His Fall!
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  2. Alofa Atu

    Alofa Atu Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 7, 2019
    Messages:
    1,726
    Likes Received:
    64
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    If you might answer these questions for me:

    What nature do angels of Heaven have, fallen or unfallen (Luke 15:7,10)? What flesh nature (John 3:6) does every child born of Adam have, such as David (Romans 1:3) and Abraham (2 Corinthians 11:22)?

    Heb 2:16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.
     
  3. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    46,031
    Likes Received:
    2,295
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Jesus bypassed the Fall by the Virgin Birth, so took on sinless humanity!
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  4. Alofa Atu

    Alofa Atu Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 7, 2019
    Messages:
    1,726
    Likes Received:
    64
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    I noticed you didn't address the texts cited, for that which is flesh is flesh and that which is spirit is spirit, and so being born of the Holy Ghost doesn't say anything about the nature of the flesh. What nature (fallen or unfallen) did Mary have?

    Gal_4:4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,

    (that "law", is the law of heredity in context)

    Was Mary a child of Adam, as Matthew 1 and Luke 3 tell us, was she of the lineage and seed of David according to the flesh as scripture says?

    Wherein then did Jesus get his flesh?

    Rom_1:3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;
     
  5. pythons

    pythons New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2019
    Messages:
    18
    Likes Received:
    3
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    According to Ellen White Christ had the same nature as Lucifer OR any other archangel before his fall...
    ...According to Scripture "GOD" has a Divine Nature that would make it IMPOSSIBLE to sin.
    ...Therefore, according to Ellen White Jesus isn't quite GOD, like the Father is "GOD".

    SDA's claim Christ, prior to the Incarnation, existed and was known throughout the galaxy as the archangel Michael...
    ...Lucifer was also an archangel;

    Ellen White, Seventh Day Adventist Signs of the Times Sept 14 1882
    Rebellion originated with Satan. Notwithstanding the exalted position which he occupied among the heavenly host, he became dissatisfied because he was not accorded supreme honor. Hence he questioned God's purposes and impugned his justice. He bent all his powers to allure the angels from their allegiance. The fact that he was an archangel, glorious and powerful, enabled him to exert a mighty influence.

    Lucifer was, next to Christ, the highest ANGEL in heaven.

    Ellen White, Review and Herald, Jan 14, 1909
    We are to be partakers of knowledge. As I have seen pictures representing Satan coming to Christ in the wilderness of temptation in the form of a hideous monster, I have thought, How little the artists knew of the Bible! Before his fall, Satan was, next to Christ, the highest ANGEL in heaven

    There were scores and scores of "archangels"

    Ellen White
    Listen to their voices as they sing loud hosannas and as they wave the palm branches of victory. Rich music fills heaven as their voices sing forth these words: "Worthy, worthy is the Lamb that was slain and rose again forevermore. Salvation unto our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb." And the angelic host, angels and archangels, covering cherub and glorious seraph, echo back the refrain of that joyous, triumphant song saying, "Amen: Blessing, and glory

    Ellen White
    Angels and archangels are looking upon God's chosen ones with the most earnest interest to see what influence the truth is having upon mind and character

    The reasoning goes IF Lucifer the archangel had the potential of sinning and loosing his salvation - the same would go for Michael the archangel. This type of thing could never happen to "GOD" because GOD's Nature is a native or natural possession to "ONLY GOD". This is why Christ needed to be "promoted" or "paraded around heaven".

    Ellen White
    Lucifer in heaven, before his rebellion, was a high and exalted angel, next in honor to God's dear Son. His countenance, like those of the other angels, was mild and expressive of happiness. His forehead was high and broad, showing a powerful intellect. His form was perfect; his bearing noble and majestic. A special light beamed in his countenance and shone around him brighter and more beautiful than around the other angels; yet Christ, God's dear Son, had the pre-eminence over all the angelic host. He was one with the Father before the angels were created. Lucifer was envious of Christ, and gradually assumed command which DEVOLVED on Christ alone. {SR 13.1}
     
    • Informative Informative x 1
  6. Walter

    Walter Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 20, 2011
    Messages:
    2,118
    Likes Received:
    102
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    She DID speak the truth about abortion, didn't she? So how is that the SDA has lost it's theological moorings and become PRO-CHOICE???? That alone should tell you to get OUT. Instead of answering the question about how you justify your church run abortion mills, you try deflection and point to the 'evil Catholics'. Stick to the sin of your own church and please explain how you justify your church's official guidlines concerning abortion. Please?
     
    • Useful Useful x 1
  7. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    46,031
    Likes Received:
    2,295
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Mary was a sinner as all others save Jesus, as He was born Holy One of God!
     
  8. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    46,031
    Likes Received:
    2,295
    Faith:
    Baptist
    If Sda see Jesus as archangel Michael, they agree with the JW about Jesus, and are are Cult!
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Agree Agree x 1
  9. Alofa Atu

    Alofa Atu Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 7, 2019
    Messages:
    1,726
    Likes Received:
    64
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    There is no such reference in all of the written material of White, or official Seventh-day Adventist literature. Not one reference to such. Produce the documentation wherein White stated that "Christ had the same nature as Lucifer OR any other archangel before his (Lucifer's) fall". There is no such statement. You simply made it up and bare false witness. If you claim otherwise, then produce the documentation. I'll wait.

    We (you and I) have already discussed in some detail that Christ's eternal nature is "Deity", not that of any created being (Lucifer, or other). There has already been produced documentation that the Son is identified in scripture, as "the Angel of the LORD", the uncreated Son of the Father, the highest messenger of the Father. The designation 'Angel' in regards the Son, does not speak to 'nature', but rather to 'office'. The two are not synonymous terms, and do not describe the same things, as even your own Roman Catholic sources say (previously cited). I even cited the scripture which states Jesus did not take on the "nature" of any of the created angelic hosts (Gabriel, Lucifer, etc):

    Heb 2:16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.

    "... The Lord Jesus has made a great sacrifice in order to meet man where he is. He took not on Him the nature of angels. He did not come to save angels. It is the seed of Abraham that He is helping. "I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance." Christ helps humanity by taking human nature (Letter 97, 1898) ..." - {7BC 927.2}

    "... Christ might have come to earth clothed with the glory of his Father. But he did not do this. He did not even take the form of an angel. "Verily," the apostle says, "he took not on him the nature of angels, but he took on him the seed of Abraham." Divinity took humanity, that humanity might touch humanity. With his human arm Christ encircled the race, while with his divine arm he grasped the throne of the infinite God. The world that was separated by sin from the continent of heaven, he drew back into favor with God. ..." - {YI, February 22, 1900 par. 5}

    "... This great purpose had been shadowed forth in types and symbols. The burning bush, in which Christ appeared to Moses, revealed God. The symbol chosen for the representation of the Deity was a lowly shrub, that seemingly had no attractions. This enshrined the Infinite. The all-merciful God shrouded His glory in a most humble type, that Moses could look upon it and live. So in the pillar of cloud by day and the pillar of fire by night, God communicated with Israel, revealing to men His will, and imparting to them His grace. God's glory was subdued, and His majesty veiled, that the weak vision of finite men might behold it. So Christ was to come in "the body of our humiliation" (Philippians 3:21, R. V.), "in the likeness of men." In the eyes of the world He possessed no beauty that they should desire Him; yet He was the incarnate God, the light of heaven and earth. His glory was veiled, His greatness and majesty were hidden, that He might draw near to sorrowful, tempted men. ..." - {DA 23.2}

    Phrases like this are given multitudes of times in the writings of White. You will find nothing counter to it.

    I mean I just recently quoted it, and you now say otherwise? Darkness can only increase for you pythons. Please consider what you are doing to yourself.

    Also, as to His "nature" of mankind, it is written:

    Psa_8:5 For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour.

    Heb_2:7 Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands:

    Heb_2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

    Therefore in His "nature" as Deity He is infinitely higher than any of the created angelic hosts (Gabriel, Lucifer, etc), and in His "nature" of humanity (before being glorified) was lower than the created angelic hosts.

    Python's, listen to your argument, and see it to the end and conclusion. It leaves out the "nature" of mankind. It leaves out that Jesus came to condemn sin "in the flesh" (Romans 8:3). Which "flesh" pythons? What "flesh" was nailed to the "cross" (Philippians 2:8)? What "flesh" was taken to the grave?

    The argument is not about the nature of Deity, but the nature of humanity (mankind).

    "... Was the human nature of the Son of Mary changed into the divine nature of the Son of God? No; the two natures were mysteriously blended in one person--the man Christ Jesus. In Him dwelt all the fullness of the Godhead bodily. When Christ was crucified, it was His human nature that died. Deity did not sink and die; that would have been impossible.--The SDA Bible Commentary, vol. 5, p. 1113. ..." - {7ABC 446.2}

    "... Many claim that it was impossible for Christ to be overcome by temptation. Then He could not have been placed in Adam's position; He could not have gained the victory that Adam failed to gain. If we have in any sense a more trying conflict than had Christ, then He would not be able to succor us. But our Saviour took humanity, with all its liabilities. He took the nature of man, with the possibility of yielding to temptation. We have nothing to bear which He has not endured. ..." - {DA 117.2}

    The Father and the Son are two Persons/Beings, not the same Person/Being. They are of the same "nature", not the same Person/Being.

    "... Jesus repelled the charge of blasphemy. My authority, He said, for doing the work of which you accuse Me, is that I am the Son of God, one with Him in nature, in will, and in purpose. ..." - {DA 208.3}

    "... Over the rent sepulcher of Joseph, Christ had proclaimed in triumph, "I am the resurrection, and the life." These words could be spoken only by the Deity. All created beings live by the will and power of God. They are dependent recipients of the life of God. From the highest seraph to the humblest animate being, all are replenished from the Source of life. Only He who is one with God could say, I have power to lay down My life, and I have power to take it again. In His divinity, Christ possessed the power to break the bonds of death. {DA 785.3} ..."

    "... The Ten Commandments were spoken by God Himself, and were written by His own hand. They are of divine,[vi] and not of human composition. But the Bible, with its God-given truths expressed in the language of men, presents a union of the divine and the human. Such a union existed in the nature of Christ, who was the Son of God and the Son of man. Thus it is true of the Bible, as it was of Christ, that "the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us." John 1:14...." - {GC v.4}

    They are different in that Jesus who being "in the form of God" (Deity nature), took upon Himself the "form of a servant" (mankind nature), while the Person of the Father and the Person of the Holy Ghost never have, except as in "Christ".

    The Son is always submissive to the will of the Father, by choice, it is even part of the Ten Commandments, see the 5th Commandment:

    Exo 20:12 Honour thy father and thy mother: that thy days may be long upon the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee.

    In typology it is written:

    Gen_41:40 Thou shalt be over my house, and according unto thy word shall all my people be ruled: only in the throne will I be greater than thou.

    Thus the Son, listens and obeys the will of the Father, but they are both equally God (as scripture records all over the place), both equally Divinity, sharing the same nature as Deity, sitting on the same throne.
     
    #69 Alofa Atu, Sep 4, 2019
    Last edited: Sep 4, 2019
  10. Alofa Atu

    Alofa Atu Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 7, 2019
    Messages:
    1,726
    Likes Received:
    64
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    "Galaxy" is a little limited, the word "universe" would more readily apply. Yes, The Son of the Father is called Michael, and so many other names/titles/designations. It was not only "prior" to the "incarnation", but even afterwards, and during. He is always the Highest Messenger of the Father. Coming as a 'babe' doesn't change that office, and in fact exalts that office even more.

    Not merely "was" (White refers to Lucifer's past office over unfallen angelic hosts in that reference), but even still "is", as already demonstrated, for he is 'archangel' over all the forces of 'hell', the "prince of devils", etc. Gabriel and so many others are also 'archangels' of the created angelic hosts. It does not speak of their created 'nature', but their 'office' or 'function' as messengers and "fellows" of the Son in that capacity, not nature. I even cited Roman Catholic sources that make such distinction.

    Yes, "next to Christ", the uncreated Angel of the LORD (Father), Lucifer was in such position, as already cited from scripture, White and Roman Catholic quotations. What is the issue here? The phrase has nothing to say of "nature", but only "office" of Messenger, those who are to relay to the universe the will of the Father. The Son, eternal Deity, uncreated "Angel" (office of messenger) is foremost in this. Lucifer, a created (by the Son at will of the Father) being, was placed next to the throne of God, as an anointed covering cherub, as near as possible for a created being to be in both position and in creation. Ezekiel and Isaiah and other texts were already cited.

    Yes, even as scripture teaches, hymn writers, and Roman Catholic sources also teach, among so many others, I even cited Melito of Sardis. It is the order among the many "legions" of Light (and now also of Lie-ght (darkness)), as rulers over 10's, 50's, 100's, 1000's, etc. God even showed the pattern on earth in the armies of Israel under Joshua, Moses, etc. Thy will be done in earth as it is in Heaven (but you do not understand this prayer, do you?)

    Whose? Yours? Not my reasoning, nor scriptural reasoning, nor even White's reasoning, but simply that which you think, without any evidence or documentation for it. It is the vain imagination.

    Lucifer cannot lose "his salvation", never having been "saved". What Lucifer did lose, was his office, position, and soon his life - forever. Lucifer, even while in heaven was (and still is) a created being, and was always 'amenable' to God's Law. The Son had no such "yoke", being eternal Deity and Creator.

    You have confused "nature" and "office". That the Son is designated "the archangel", doesn't speak anything about His eternal nature as Deity. It only refers to His office. In Heaven, while Lucifer was still obedient, the Son had not yet taken upon Himself the "form of a servant", but was in "the form of God". The Son at that time had not taken on the nature of mankind, and never has taken on the nature of the created angelic hosts, as cited already.

    Again, this is a confusion of the two natures, Deity and humanity (mankind). There are more than two natures in scripture, as there is created angelic host nature, the nature of beasts, birds and fishes (see 1 Corinthians 15:39, etc). All flesh (nature) is not the same, neither in the terrestrial, neither the celestial. The nature of Deity is not that of any created being. It is unique to Deity.

    What is the issue here? Using the words "paraded around Heaven" (not found in the writings of White at all) or "promoted" (the Son was always over all the created hosts) is simply your own theology, not that of White, nor of scripture.

    The Son was always equal with the Father, and if you would read the context, and other statements, you will see, that the "position" of the Son had not changed. A statement from the Father was necessary because of what Lucifer had been doing and saying among the other created angelic hosts. The Father spoke the truth to undo the lies being spread.

    "... They clearly set forth that Jesus was the Son of God, existing with him before the angels were created; and that he had ever stood at the right hand of God, and his mild, loving authority had not heretofore been questioned ..." - {1SP 19.1}

    As for the word "devolved", White used the 1828 Webster's dictionary:

    "DEVOLVED, pp. Rolled down; passed over to another."

    This is so, since the Son does not His own will, but always, even in eternity, the will of His Father. Numerous texts on this, and some already cited. Therefore, what the Father 'says', the Son is the 'Amen' (Revelation 3:14) to it, since the Son is the "Apostle" (Hebrews 3:1) of the Father.
     
  11. Alofa Atu

    Alofa Atu Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 7, 2019
    Messages:
    1,726
    Likes Received:
    64
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    We believe the scripture, The Son is Michael, as all of the Reformation and others before them saw it there.

    Actually the JW agree (in part) with us (Michael is Jesus), and they agree in part with Rome (Michael created). They are in error in the second part, not the first.

    Feel free to call either of us what you will, it doesn't really mean all that much coming from you.
     
  12. Alofa Atu

    Alofa Atu Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 7, 2019
    Messages:
    1,726
    Likes Received:
    64
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    Again:

    Joh_3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.

    Being born of the Holy Ghost doesn't have anything to say of the flesh nature. For that which is born of the flesh (as Jesus human body was, texts cited) is flesh, and that which is born of the spirit is spirit.

    I am not saying that Christ had a fallen spirit. I am saying He took upon Himself fallen sinful flesh. The mind/spirit/heart of Christ knew no sin (2 Corinthians 5:21). Yet His flesh was fallen, sinful (Romans 8:3).

    This is where Roman Catholicism's theology of "original sin" really attacks the everlasting gospel. They teach sin as "nature", and not sin as "choice" (1 John 3:4), and because that is so, they had to come up with all the other erroneous dogmas, "immaculate conception (of Mary)", "impeccability", etc ,etc to avoid Jesus coming in the likeness of sinful flesh, for since they teach that simply being in such flesh is sin (scripturally that is untrue). Their foundation was wrong, which led them to the wrong and very dangerous conclusions.

    I am glad you reject the teaching that Mary was sinless. Since Mary was indeed a sinner, she had a fallen sinful flesh nature, even which she inherited from Adam and all her ancestors inbetween. This is what she gave to the Son.

    Gal_4:4 But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law,

    Heb 10:5 ".. but a body hast thou prepared me:"
     
  13. pythons

    pythons New Member

    Joined:
    Sep 1, 2019
    Messages:
    18
    Likes Received:
    3
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    Here,

    "The unity that exists between Christ and His disciples does not destroy the personality of either. They are one in purpose, in mind, in character, but not in person. It is thus that God and Christ are one." {8T 269.4}

    That's Ellen White saying that the Disciples are as much ONE with God as Jesus is one with God? You wouldn't say that the Disciples were ONE with God like Jesus - or would you?
     
  14. Alofa Atu

    Alofa Atu Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 7, 2019
    Messages:
    1,726
    Likes Received:
    64
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    White is making the distinction (as scripture does) between the Persons/Beings of the Father and the Son. See Daniel for instance, The Person of the Father is identified as "the Ancient of Days", and the Son, is identified, "Son of Man". The same in the NT, as in Hebrews, the Person of the Father is identified as "the Majesty", while the Son is identified as "express image of his (the Father's) person". This happens all through scripture, even when using words like "God", for instance, see

    Eph_1:17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:

    As for Christ and His disciples being "one", Christ is not the disciples and the disciples are not Christ, He is their 'Head', and they His 'body', in this way they are "one".

    The scripture does not teach Roman Catholicisms' "trinity" error. "One" in scripture, especially in relation to God, does not deal with Person/Being. It deals with unity of purpose, or nature, or character.

    Jesus and the Father are not "one" in their Person/Being. In their Persons/Beings they are two, and the Holy Spirit makes three. They are a perfect 'chord', a trio (three working together in unison and purpose, and are thus in total harmony, one accord).

    Jesus, was speaking about character, not Person, see John 5:37, 14:9-14.

    Otherwise what you run into is either Roman Catholicism's false 'trinity' (Rome def.*) doctrine or oneness Pentacostalism.

    *there are other definitions

    Now, consider the definition of “one” in regards JEHOVAH Elohiym (LORD God), the disciples, marriage, covenant and atonement:

    Deuteronomy 6:4 KJB - Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:

    Deuteronomy 6:4 HOT [read from Right to Left] - שׁמע ישׂראל יהוה אלהינו יהוה אחד׃

    Side note:

    The Hebrew word [H259] “אחד”, “'echâd” is not, [H905] “בּד”, “bad” nor, [H3173] “יחיד”, “yâchı̂yd”.

    Side note, in the so-called LXX [*Septuagint, the work of Origen in his Hexapla, not the work of 70 or 72 Jewish scholars from the twelve tribes, and definitely not written before AD 100]

    Deuteronomy 6:4 LXX* - “... Ἄκουε, Ισραηλ· κύριος ὁ θεὸς ἡμῶν κύριος εἷς ἐστιν·”

    The Deuteronomy 6:4 KJB passage is quoted in the New Testament itself:

    Mark 12:29 KJB - And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:

    Mark 12:29 GNT - ὁ δὲ ᾿Ιησοῦς ἀπεκρίθη αὐτῷ ὅτι πρώτη πάντων ἐντολὴ· ἄκουε, ᾿Ισραήλ, Κύριος ὁ Θεὸς ἡμῶν Κύριος εἷς ἐστι·

    This is clearly explained in more detail in 1 John 5:7,8 KJB, the "are one" is defined by the next verse, "agree in one", meaning they three are one in purpose, etc, not person:

    1 John 5:7 KJB - For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

    1 John 5:7 GNT - ὅτι τρεῖς εἰσιν οἱ μαρτυροῦντες ἐν τῷ οὐρανῷ, ὁ Πατήρ, ὁ Λόγος και τὸ ῞Αγιον Πνεύμα, καὶ οὗτοι οι τρεῖς ἕν εἰσι·

    1 John 5:8 KJB - And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

    1 John 5:8 GNT - καὶ τρεῖς εἰσιν οι μαρτυροῦντες ἐν τῇ γῇ, τὸ Πνεῦμα καὶ τὸ ὕδωρ καὶ τὸ αἷμα, καὶ οἱ τρεῖς εἰς τὸ ἕν εἰσιν.

    Marriage, in the King James Bible, uses these very same words to describe the at-one-ment of two persons of man-kind, a male and female in covenant relationship with God:

    Genesis 2:24 KJB - Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh.

    Genesis 2:24 HOT - על־כן יעזב־אישׁ את־אביו ואת־אמו ודבק באשׁתו והיו לבשׂר אחד׃

    Side note
    , in the so-called LXX [*Septuagint, the work of Origen in his Hexapla, not the work of 70 or 72 Jewish scholars from the twelve tribes, and definitely not written before AD 100]

    Genesis 2:24 LXX* - ἕνεκεν τούτου καταλείψει ἄνθρωπος τὸν πατέρα αὐτοῦ καὶ τὴν μητέρα αὐτοῦ καὶ προσκολληθήσεται πρὸς τὴν γυναῖκα αὐτοῦ, καὶ ἔσονται οἱ δύο εἰς σάρκα μίαν.

    See how “they”, being before “twain”, that is to say two persons, one male and one female, are to be after the marriage covenant, “one”:

    Matthew 19:5 KJB - And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh?

    Matthew 19:5 GNT TR - καὶ εἶπεν, ἕνεκεν τούτου καταλείψει ἄνθρωπος τὸν πατέρα καὶ τὴν μητέρα καὶ κολληθήσεται τῇ γυναικὶ αὐτοῦ, καὶ ἔσονται οἱ δύο εἰς σάρκα μίαν;

    Matthew 19:6 KJB - Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.

    Matthew 19:6 GNT TR - ὥστε οὐκέτι εἰσὶ δύο, ἀλλὰ σὰρξ μία. ὃ οὖν ὁ Θεὸς συνέζευξεν, ἄνθρωπος μὴ χωριζέτω.

    Mark 10:6 KJB - But from the beginning of the creation God made them male and female.

    Mark 10:6 GNT TR- ἀπὸ δὲ ἀρχῆς κτίσεως ἄρσεν καὶ θῆλυ ἐποίησεν αὐτούς ὁ Θεός·

    Mark 10:7 KJB - For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and cleave to his wife;

    Mark 10:7 GNT TR - ἕνεκεν τούτου καταλείψει ἄνθρωπος τὸν πατέρα αὐτοῦ καὶ τὴν μητέρα καὶ προσκολληθήσεται πρὸς τὴν γυναῖκα αὐτοῦ,

    Mark 10:8 KJB - And they twain shall be one flesh: so then they are no more twain, but one flesh.

    Mark 10:8 GNT TR - καὶ ἔσονται οἱ δύο εἰς σάρκα μίαν. ὥστε οὐκέτι εἰσὶ δύο, ἀλλὰ μία σάρξ·

    Mark 10:9 KJB - What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder.

    Mark 10:9 GNT TR - ὃ οὖν ὁ Θεὸς συνέζευξεν ἄνθρωπος μὴ χωριζέτω.

    1 Corinthians 6:16 KJB - What? know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is one body? for two, saith he, shall be one flesh.

    1 Corinthians 6:16 GNT TR - ἢ οὐκ οἴδατε ὅτι ὁ κολλώμενος τῇ πόρνῃ ἓν σῶμά ἐστιν; ἔσονται γάρ, φησίν, οἱ δύο εἰς σάρκα μίαν·

    1 Corinthians 6:17 KJB - But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.

    1 Corinthians 6:17 GNT TR - ὁ δὲ κολλώμενος τῷ Κυρίῳ ἓν πνεῦμά ἐστι.

    Ephesians 5:31 KJB - For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother, and shall be joined unto his wife, and they two shall be one flesh.

    Ephesians 5:31 GNT TR - ἀντὶ τούτου καταλείψει ἄνθρωπος τὸν πατέρα αὐτοῦ καὶ τὴν μητέρα καὶ προσκολληθήσεται πρὸς τὴν γυναῖκα αὐτοῦ, καὶ ἔσονται οἱ δύο εἰς σάρκα μίαν.
     
    #74 Alofa Atu, Sep 4, 2019
    Last edited: Sep 4, 2019
  15. Alofa Atu

    Alofa Atu Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 7, 2019
    Messages:
    1,726
    Likes Received:
    64
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    They, which are entered into the marriage covenant, are to be one in purpose, in mind, in character, but not in person. This is how Jesus Christ even spoke of Himself and the Father, along with Himself and the Disciples, and even with the disciples amongst themselves, togetherness in mind, in purpose, in harmony, but not in person:

    John 10:30 KJB - I and my Father are one.

    John 10:30 GNT TR - εγω και ο πατηρ εν εσμεν

    John 17:11 KJB - And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.

    John 17:11 GNT TR - καὶ οὐκέτι εἰμὶ ἐν τῷ κόσμῳ, καὶ οὗτοι ἐν τῷ κόσμῳ εἰσί, κἀγὼ πρὸς σὲ ἔρχομαι. πάτερ ἅγιε, τήρησον αὐτοὺς ἐν τῷ ὀνόματί σου ᾧ δέδωκάς μοι, ἵνα ὦσιν ἓν καθὼς ἡμεῖς.

    John 17:21 KJB - That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

    John 17:21 GNT TR - ἵνα πάντες ἓν ὦσι, καθὼς σύ, πάτερ, ἐν ἐμοὶ κἀγὼ ἐν σοί, ἵνα καὶ αὐτοὶ ἐν ἡμῖν ἓν ὦσιν, ἵνα ὁ κόσμος πιστεύῃ ὅτι σύ με ἀπέστειλας.

    John 17:22 KJB - And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

    John 17:22 GNT TR - κἀγὼ τὴν δόξαν ἢν δέδωκάς μοι δέδωκα αὐτοῖς, ἵνα ὦσιν ἓν καθὼς ἡμεῖς ἕν ἐσμεν,

    This is what prophecy said would be:

    Ezekiel 11:19 KJB - And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh:

    Ezekiel 11:19 HOT - ונתתי להם לב אחד ורוח חדשׁה אתן בקרבכם והסרתי לב האבן מבשׂרם ונתתי להם לב בשׂר׃

    Other passages which also speak of togetherness of multiplicity:

    Genesis 1:26 KJB - And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

    Genesis 1:27 KJB - So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

    Genesis 11:4 KJB - And they said, Go to, let us build us a city and a tower, whose top may reach unto heaven; and let us make us a name, lest we be scattered abroad upon the face of the whole earth.

    Genesis 11:5 KJB - And the LORD came down to see the city and the tower, which the children of men builded.

    Genesis 11:7 KJB - Go to, let us go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech.

    Nehemiah 8:1 KJB - And all the people gathered themselves together as one man into the street that was before the water gate; and they spake unto Ezra the scribe to bring the book of the law of Moses, which the LORD had commanded to Israel.

    Isaiah 6:8 KJB - Also I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, Whom shall I send, and who will go for us? Then said I, Here am I; send me.

    Joshua 9:2 KJB - That they gathered themselves together, to fight with Joshua and with Israel, with one accord.

    Matthew 18:19 KJB - Again I say unto you, That if two of you shall agree on earth as touching any thing that they shall ask, it shall be done for them of my Father which is in heaven.

    John 1:1 KJB - In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

    John 1:2 KJB - The same was in the beginning with God.

    John 1:3 KJB - All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

    John 3:11 KJB - Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.
     
  16. Alofa Atu

    Alofa Atu Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 7, 2019
    Messages:
    1,726
    Likes Received:
    64
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    Acts 1:14 KJB - These all continued with one accord in prayer and supplication, with the women, and Mary the mother of Jesus, and with his brethren.

    Acts 2:1 KJB - And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.

    Acts 2:46 KJB - And they, continuing daily with one accord in the temple, and breaking bread from house to house, did eat their meat with gladness and singleness of heart,

    Acts 4:24 KJB - And when they heard that, they lifted up their voice to God with one accord, and said, Lord, thou art God, which hast made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all that in them is:

    Acts 5:12 KJB - And by the hands of the apostles were many signs and wonders wrought among the people; (and they were all with one accord in Solomon's porch.

    Acts 7:57 KJB - Then they cried out with a loud voice, and stopped their ears, and ran upon him with one accord,

    Acts 8:6 KJB - And the people with one accord gave heed unto those things which Philip spake, hearing and seeing the miracles which he did.

    Acts 12:20 KJB - And Herod was highly displeased with them of Tyre and Sidon: but they came with one accord to him, and, having made Blastus the king's chamberlain their friend, desired peace; because their country was nourished by the king's country.

    Acts 15:15 KJB - And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,

    Acts 15:25 KJB - It seemed good unto us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men unto you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul,

    Acts 18:12 KJB - And when Gallio was the deputy of Achaia, the Jews made insurrection with one accord against Paul, and brought him to the judgment seat,

    Acts 19:29 KJB - And the whole city was filled with confusion: and having caught Gaius and Aristarchus, men of Macedonia, Paul's companions in travel, they rushed with one accord into the theatre.

    Romans 12:16 KJB - Be of the same mind one toward another. Mind not high things, but condescend to men of low estate. Be not wise in your own conceits.

    Romans 15:6 KJB - That ye may with one mind and one mouth glorify God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ.

    1 Corinthians 1:10 KJB - Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.

    2 Corinthians 13:11 KJB - Finally, brethren, farewell. Be perfect, be of good comfort, be of one mind, live in peace; and the God of love and peace shall be with you.

    Ephesians 4:3 KJB - Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit in the bond of peace.

    Ephesians 4:4 KJB - There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;

    Philippians 1:27 KJB - Only let your conversation be as it becometh the gospel of Christ: that whether I come and see you, or else be absent, I may hear of your affairs, that ye stand fast in one spirit, with one mind striving together for the faith of the gospel;

    Philippians 2:2 KJB - Fulfil ye my joy, that ye be likeminded, having the same love, being of one accord, of one mind.

    Philippians 4:2 KJB - I beseech Euodias, and beseech Syntyche, that they be of the same mind in the Lord.

    1 Peter 3:8 KJB - Finally, be ye all of one mind, having compassion one of another, love as brethren, be pitiful, be courteous:

    1 John 5:7 KJB - For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

    1 John 5:8 KJB - And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

    As seen, even the wicked can be in a similar state:

    Revelation 17:13 KJB - These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.

    Revelation 17:13 GNT TR - οὗτοι μίαν γνώμην ἔχουσι, καὶ τὴν δύναμιν καὶ τὴν ἐξουσίαν αὐτῶν τῷ θηρίῳ διδόασιν.

    Revelation 17:17 KJB - For God hath put in their hearts to fulfil his will, and to agree, and give their kingdom unto the beast, until the words of God shall be fulfilled.

    Revelation 17:17 GNT TR - ὁ γὰρ Θεὸς ἔδωκεν εἰς τὰς καρδίας αὐτῶν ποιῆσαι τὴν γνώμην αὐτοῦ, καὶ ποιῆσαι μίαν γνώμην καὶ δοῦναι τὴν βασιλείαν αὐτῶν τῷ θηρίῳ ἄχρι τελεσθῶσιν οἱ λόγοι τοῦ Θεοῦ.

    The Bible [King James Bible for English] is a specific example of this “at-one-ment”, itself not only being a work of God and man-kind [even as Jesus is God and man], it is also “one” book, being many books, many prophets, many people, that all agree in one, even as the “law” and the “testimony” agree together with one mind, one purpose, though they are God's “two witnesses” [plural] agreeing together in witness [singular].

    The 4 Gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John, though each a differing personal witness, all agree together when compared prayerfully:

    Isaiah 8:20 KJB - To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.

    John 8:17 KJB - It is also written in your law, that the testimony of two men is true.

    Acts 10:43 KJB - To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

    Acts 15:15 KJB - And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,

    Romans 3:21 KJB - But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

    2 Corinthians 13:1 KJB - This is the third time I am coming to you. In the mouth of two or three witnesses shall every word be established.

    Etc.
     
  17. Alofa Atu

    Alofa Atu Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 7, 2019
    Messages:
    1,726
    Likes Received:
    64
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    Yes, God has form, likeness, shape (physically) etc:

    The Father is not a perfume, not an aethereal essence pervading the universe, and the Son is in His express image.

    Mat_6:9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.

    Mat_16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.

    Luk_11:2 And he said unto them, When ye pray, say, Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done, as in heaven, so in earth.

    He, the Father, is a "Person", even His person (Job 13:8; Hebrews 1:3), of which Jesus (the Son) is the "express image" of.

    As for the rest, see "His person" (Job 13:8); "form of God" (Philippians 2:6), "shape" (John 5:37), "image" (Genesis 1:26,27; Hebrews 1:3), "likeness" (Genesis 1:26,27), "being" (Acts 17:28), has a very real movable "Throne" on which He sits (Daniel 7:9-10; Revelation 4-5, &c), has "the hair of his head like the pure wool" (Daniel 7:9), "whose garment was white as snow" (Daniel 7:9), has a "right hand" (Revelation 5:1; Acts 7:55-56), able to be looked upon, "to look upon like a jasper and a sardine stone" (Revelation 4:2), having His own "nature" (Galatians 4:8).

    See also "back parts" (Exodus 33:23), and even a "divine nature" (2 Peter 1:4), see also "under his feet" (Exodus 24:20).

    The angels are also called 'spirits' and "persons" ("fellows"; Hebrews 1:9), "young man" (Mark 16:5; Daniel 9:21; &c), and yet have real celestial (Heavenly) "bodies" with unfallen angelic "flesh" (1 Corinthians 15:35-58; Jude 1:7, Genesis 17-19, &c) an unfallen heavenly "nature" (Hebrews 2:16), where as we have bodies terrestrial (dust).

    The Son is also a "person" (Hebrews 1:3; 2 Corinthians 2:10; Matthew 27:24; Deuteronomy 27:25; &c).

    So is the Holy Ghost (John 14:16; &c), though His nature is a mystery and the scripture does not explain it.

    Mankind are also called 'spirits' (1 Peter 3:19; Hebrews 12:23) and yet are real tangible beings, with bodies (made of dust).

    Philippians 2:6; Daniel 3:25; Genesis 18:4, 19:2; Exodus 24:10-11; Psalms 18:9; John 5:37; Exodus 33:23,20,22; Daniel 7:9-10,13; Ezekiel 1:1,8,26-28; Acts 7:55-56; Psalms 24:1-10; John 20:17; 1 Peter 3:22; Matthew 18:10; Revelation 1:13-20, 2:1, 4:1-11, 5:1-14; Hebrews 1:13; Colossians 1:3-6; Numbers 12:8; Isaiah 45:23, 48:3; Revelation 3:16; Psalms 89:34; Psalms 104:33, 146:2; Acts 17:28; Genesis 1:26-27; Colossians 1:15; &c.
     
  18. Alofa Atu

    Alofa Atu Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 7, 2019
    Messages:
    1,726
    Likes Received:
    64
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    Every person who believes what the scriptures teach, believes in the Deity and eternality of the person/being of the Father, the person/being of the Son [Jesus] and the person/being of the Holy Spirit.

    Those who thus believe the scriptures fully agree with every text of scripture which say that there is "One LORD" [Deuteornomy 6:4; Zechariah 14:9; Mark 12:29; 1 Corinthians 8:6 KJB], or "One God" [1 Corinthians 8:6 KJB, which is an expansion of Deuteronomy 6:4; Mark 12:29, etc KJB] or other texts such which say there is "no" other "God beside" JEHOVAH Elohiym [Deuteronomy 32:39; Isaiah 43:10, 44:6,8, 45:5,21 KJB].

    Those who believe the scripture agree fully with what they teach in that there is no other JEHOVAH Elohiym, but JEHOVAH Elohiym; though some may have a slight misunderstanding of what that specifically entails. The matter will fall into what the scripture teaches about the persons/beings of the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost/Spirit, and the word "one".

    JEHOVAH [name, character, singular] Elohiym [3 persons, multiple]. At-one-ment. Not a single person, but 3 eternal persons/beings.

    Not a three-headed hydra.

    Not one person masquerading as three persons. Not one being with three personalities. Not two persons pretending to be a third person. Not two beings with three personalities.

    Not a ventriliquist.

    There are three persons/beings. Working in perfect musical harmony, symphony, and in a singular "chord" [thus 'one accord']. We may see this in Matthew 28:19 KJB:

    Matthew 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

    Matthew 28:19 GNT TR - πορευθεντες ουν μαθητευσατε παντα τα εθνη βαπτιζοντες αυτους εις το ονομα του πατρος και του υιου και του αγιου πνευματος

    The name of God, represents His character:

    Exodus 33:18 And he said, I beseech thee, shew me thy glory.

    Exodus 33:19 And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the LORD before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy.

    Exodus 33:20 And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.

    Exodus 33:21 And the LORD said, Behold, there is a place by me, and thou shalt stand upon a rock:

    Exodus 33:22 And it shall come to pass, while my glory passeth by, that I will put thee in a clift of the rock, and will cover thee with my hand while I pass by:

    Exodus 33:23 And I will take away mine hand, and thou shalt see my back parts: but my face shall not be seen.

    Exodus 34:1 And the LORD said unto Moses, Hew thee two tables of stone like unto the first: and I will write upon these tables the words that were in the first tables, which thou brakest.

    Exodus 34:2 And be ready in the morning, and come up in the morning unto mount Sinai, and present thyself there to me in the top of the mount.

    Exodus 34:3 And no man shall come up with thee, neither let any man be seen throughout all the mount; neither let the flocks nor herds feed before that mount.

    Exodus 34:4 And he hewed two tables of stone like unto the first; and Moses rose up early in the morning, and went up unto mount Sinai, as the LORD had commanded him, and took in his hand the two tables of stone.

    Exodus 34:5 And the LORD descended in the cloud, and stood with him there, and proclaimed the name of the LORD.

    Exodus 34:6 And the LORD passed by before him, and proclaimed, The LORD, The LORD God, merciful and gracious, longsuffering, and abundant in goodness and truth,

    Exodus 34:7 Keeping mercy for thousands, forgiving iniquity and transgression and sin, and that will by no means clear the guilty; visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children, and upon the children's children, unto the third and to the fourth generation.

    Exodus 34:8 And Moses made haste, and bowed his head toward the earth, and worshipped.
    Connected with His name/His glory/His character is in the Ten Commandments, the written transcript of His very perfect character:

    Exodus 20:5 Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me;

    Exodus 20:6 And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

    The very name [singular], being the character and Glory of God, JEHOVAH, is shared amongst the persons [multiplicity] of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit/Ghost.

    [the singular name]

    “... in the name ...”

    [GNT] “... εἰς τὸ ὄνομα ...”

    This is singular and definite [article], yet there is seen plurality of persons which all share/have it. Three distinct definite [article] persons to be specific, each joined by the “and” [“kai”] construct:

    [1st “person”]

    “... of the Father, ...”,

    [GNT TR] “... του πατρος ...”

    “... and ...”,

    [GNT TR] “... και ...”

    [2nd “person”]

    “... of the Son, ...”,

    [GNT TR] “... του υιου ...”

    “... and ...”,

    [GNT TR] “... και ...”

    [3rd “person”]

    “... of the Holy Ghost ...”,

    [GNT TR] “... του αγιου πνευματος ...”

    The doctrine of Godhead, as taught in Matthew 28:19, is revealed all throughout the King James Bible, a small sampling:

    Matthew 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
     
    #78 Alofa Atu, Sep 4, 2019
    Last edited: Sep 4, 2019
  19. Alofa Atu

    Alofa Atu Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 7, 2019
    Messages:
    1,726
    Likes Received:
    64
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    Genesis 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

    Genesis 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

    Genesis 1:3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

    Genesis 1:7 And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.

    Genesis 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

    Genesis 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.


    Genesis 19:24 Then the LORD rained upon Sodom and upon Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven;

    [Jesus, the LORD [JEHOVAH Jesus, JEHOVAH E/Immanuel] who came down with the two covering cherubs, the two angels that are beside the LORD, is standing upon the earth [Genesis 18-19, especially 18:25 “Judge of all the Earth”] and calling down fire from His Father above, the Holy Spirit being included by the Fire also, for God is a consuming fire, and Sodom and Gomorah are said to have been destroyed by the vengeance of eternal fire, or in other words the vengeance of God]

    Ephesians 4:4 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;

    Ephesians 4:5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

    Ephesians 4:6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

    2 Timothy 1:18 The Lord grant unto him that he may find mercy of the Lord in that day: and in how many things he ministered unto me at Ephesus, thou knowest very well.

    Psalms 110:1 [[A Psalm of David.]] The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.

    [Jesus [JEHOVAH Jesus, JEHOVAH E/Immanuel] speaking not only to David, but God the Father, speaking to the Son also [David being a type pointing to Christ], as seen in the NT, since the whole of Scripture testifies of the the Son [John 5:39]]

    Matthew 22:44 The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, till I make thine enemies thy footstool?

    Luke 20:42 And David himself saith in the book of Psalms, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,

    Acts 2:34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,

    1 Corinthians 8:6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

    2 Samuel 23:2 The Spirit of the LORD spake by me, and his word was in my tongue.

    Psalms 22:1 [[To the chief Musician upon Aijeleth Shahar, A Psalm of David.]] My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring?

    Matthew 27:46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

    Mark 15:34 And at the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani? which is, being interpreted, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

    Zechariah 3:2 And the LORD said unto Satan, The LORD rebuke thee, O Satan; even the LORD that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: is not this a brand plucked out of the fire?

    Isaiah 48:16 Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord GOD, and his Spirit, hath sent me.

    John 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

    John 14:26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.

    John 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

    John 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

    Colossians 2:2 That their hearts might be comforted, being knit together in love, and unto all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the acknowledgement of the mystery of God, and of the Father, and of Christ;

    Colossians 2:3 In whom are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.

    Ephesians 2:18 For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.

    Ephesians 5:20 Giving thanks always for all things unto God and the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ;

    Colossians 3:17 And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him.

    1 Thessalonians 3:11 Now God himself and our Father, and our Lord Jesus Christ, direct our way unto you. John 10:30 I and my Father are one.

    Hosea 1:4 And the LORD said unto him, Call his name Jezreel; for yet a little while, and I will avenge the blood of Jezreel upon the house of Jehu, and will cause to cease the kingdom of the house of Israel.

    Hosea 1:5 And it shall come to pass at that day, that I will break the bow of Israel in the valley of Jezreel.

    Hosea 1:6 And she conceived again, and bare a daughter. And God said unto him, Call her name Loruhamah: for I will no more have mercy upon the house of Israel; but I will utterly take them away.

    Hosea 1:7 But I will have mercy upon the house of Judah, and will save them by the LORD their God, and will not save them by bow, nor by sword, nor by battle, by horses, nor by horsemen.
     
  20. Alofa Atu

    Alofa Atu Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 7, 2019
    Messages:
    1,726
    Likes Received:
    64
    Faith:
    Non Baptist Christian
    I will even cite them from the NWT for the WTS, Jehovah Witnesses reading:

    Hosea 1:4-7 NWT - 4 Then Jehovah said to him: “Name him Jezʹre·el,* for in a little while I will hold an accounting against the house of Jeʹhui for the acts of bloodshed of Jezʹre·el, and I will put an end to the royal rule of the house of Israel.j 5 In that day I will break the bow of Israel in the Valley* of Jezʹre·el.” 6 She conceived again and gave birth to a daughter. And He told him: “Name her Lo-ru·haʹmah,* for I will no longer show mercyk to the house of Israel, because I will certainly drive them away.l 7 But I will show mercy to the house of Judah,m and I will save them by Jehovah their God;n I will not save them by bow or by sword or by war or by horses or by horsemen.”o - [NWT]

    Sidenote: In the NWT reference 'bible', in vs 6, "He*" "*He - Jehovah."

    The Hebrew OT:

    Hosea 1:4 HOT - ויאמר יהוה אליו קרא שׁמו יזרעאל כי־עוד מעט ופקדתי את־דמי יזרעאל על־בית יהוא והשׁבתי ממלכות בית ישׂראל׃

    Hosea 1:5 HOT - והיה ביום ההוא ושׁברתי את־קשׁת ישׂראל בעמק יזרעאל׃

    Hosea 1:6 HOT - ותהר עוד ותלד בת ויאמר לו קרא שׁמה לא רחמה כי לא אוסיף עוד ארחם את־בית ישׂראל כי־נשׂא אשׂא להם׃

    Hosea 1:7 HOT - ואת־בית יהודה ארחם והושׁעתים ביהוה אלהיהם ולא אושׁיעם בקשׁת ובחרב ובמלחמה בסוסים ובפרשׁים׃

    The Hebrew OT Translit.:

    Hosea 1:4 HOT Translit. - waYomer y'hwäh ëläyw q'rä sh'mô yiz'r'el Kiy-ôd m'a† ûfäqad'Tiy et-D'mëy yiz'r'el al-Bëyt yëhû w'hish'BaTiy mam'l'khût Bëyt yis'räël

    Hosea 1:5 HOT Translit. - w'häyäh BaYôm hahû w'shävar'Tiy et-qeshet yis'räël B'ëmeq yiz'r'el

    Hosea 1:6 HOT Translit. - waTahar ôd waTëled Bat waYomer lô q'rä sh'mäH lo ruchämäh Kiy lo ôšiyf ôd árachëm et-Bëyt yis'räël Kiy-näso eSä lähem

    Hosea 1:7 HOT Translit. - w'et-Bëyt y'hûdäh árachëm w'hôsha'Tiym Bayhwäh élohëyhem w'lo ôshiyëm B'qeshet ûv'cherev ûv'mil'chämäh B'šûšiym ûv'färäshiym

    LXX [*so-called] -

    Hosea 1:4 LXX* - καὶ εἶπεν κύριος πρὸς αὐτόν Κάλεσον τὸ ὄνομα αὐτοῦ Ιεζραελ, διότι ἔτι μικρὸν καὶ ἐκδικήσω τὸ αἷμα τοῦ Ιεζραελ ἐπὶ τὸν οἶκον Ιου καὶ καταπαύσω βασιλείαν οἴκου Ισραηλ·

    Hosea 1:5 LXX* - ἔσται ἐν τῇ ἡμέρᾳ ἐκείνῃ συντρίψω τὸ τόξον τοῦ Ισραηλ ἐν τῇ κοιλάδι τοῦ Ιεζραελ. --

    Hosea 1:6 LXX* - καὶ συνέλαβεν ἔτι καὶ ἔτεκεν θυγατέρα. καὶ εἶπεν αὐτῷ Κάλεσον τὸ ὄνομα αὐτῆς Οὐκ--ἠλεημένη, διότι οὐ μὴ προσθήσω ἔτι ἐλεῆσαι τὸν οἶκον τοῦ Ισραηλ, ἀλλ᾿ ἢ ἀντιτασσόμενος ἀντιτάξομαι αὐτοῖς.

    Hosea 1:7 LXX* - τοὺς δὲ υἱοὺς Ιουδα ἐλεήσω καὶ σώσω αὐτοὺς ἐν κυρίῳ θεῷ αὐτῶν καὶ οὐ σώσω αὐτοὺς ἐν τόξῳ οὐδὲ ἐν ῥομφαίᾳ οὐδὲ ἐν πολέμῳ οὐδὲ ἐν ἅρμασιν οὐδὲ ἐν ἵπποις οὐδὲ ἐν ἱππεῦσιν. --

    How many JEHOVAH are in those verses [4,6,7] for our WTS/JW & unitarian & Muslim friends?

    JEHOVAH said, "... I ["JEHOVAH ... God", vs. 4,6] will save them by JEHOVAH their God [vs. 7], ..."
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
Loading...