No it is a very practical conclusion because it will not matter what kind or amount of evidence is placed before either of you as both of your are incapable of OBJECTIVE evaluation of Biblical evidence. For example, Romans 8:7-9 is a self-evident and clearly stated contrast between the unregenerated man "in the flesh" and the regenerated man "in the Spirit" and you will flatly deny the emphatic negative description of the unregenerated state as it is described in Romans 8:7-8. You will refuse to accept the complete denial of spiritual ability clearly stated "enmity" "not subject" "neither indeed CAN be...THEREFORE...in the flesh CANNOT please God"
Nothing could be stated more clear in a more defined context of the unregenerate and yet you and your compadre deny the obvious and the explicitly stated condition set clearly before you and instead run to labeling (e.g. "Calvinism" "Calvinists" Augustinians) simply because of your own inability to objectively deal with Biblical evidence no matter how clear it may be. Hence, you are both "hopeless" heretics IMO.
In addition, Jesus clearly states "NO MAN CAN" come to him except faith is "given unto him of my Father (Jn 6:64-65) and every single one the Father does draw does come to him (Jn. 6:44) because every single one the Father teaches "cometh to me" (Jn. 6:45).
Was it God's will for Adam to Sin ?
Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by savedbymercy, Feb 23, 2012.
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Were not 'robots" that God forced to do, but God had his sovereinghty and that classic 'free will" tied up in their falls! -
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Acts 2:23 Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain: -
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27For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together,
28For to do whatsoever thy hand and thy counsel determined before to be done.
" They were gathered together: this word together is the greek word Sunago and means :
to gather together, to gather
a) to draw together, collect
1) of fishes
2) of a net in which they are caught
2) to bring together, assemble, collect
a) to join together, join in one (those previously separated)
b) to gather together by convoking
c) to be gathered i.e. come together, gather, meet
The word also in the greek is in the passive voice, meaning they were gathered by something or someone outside of themselves, they received the action.
It was God's predetermination of each of them that gathered them together.
Also their wills were not free from the control of sin Rom 6:16
Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
God determined the event and everyone who would be involved in bringing the event to pass ! -
We are already judged/comdemned though before EVEN hearing of jesus, as we are sinners born estranged from God!Click to expand...
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DaChaser1 said: ↑So think that the calvinism that you rail against is NOT the version held by vast majority, as you appear to be set against a hard determinism one, that has God ordaing that Evil would occur, who caused the Fall, and who created people for both heaven/hell!Click to expand...
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DaChaser1 said: ↑we hold that ALL are born as sinners, estranged from God, seperated, and that is why they are lost, not because God "forced them to go to hell!"Click to expand...
DaChaser1 said: ↑Calvinists teach that no human can believe in God after learning of Him, and that God must first save us and cause us to be born again, and without that, they claim no man can believe.
we do NOT claim that first part, and we believe that man is depravied, and our fallen natures cannot come to finding Chrsit to be saved unless God causes us to do that!Click to expand...
DaChaser1 said: ↑God did NOT cause people to be born spirtua;;y dead. that was fault of adam!Click to expand...
DaChaser1 said: ↑ALL are sinners, and have also sinned, so God redeems out a people unto Himself...Click to expand...
DaChaser1 said: ↑others such as myself hold that due to sin of ada, we are born in a spritually dead state, and JUST as he has always done... The Lord selects and redeems out his 'faithful remnant" and by passes others, allowing them to fulfill their hearts desire... NO ONE goes to hell against his Will!Click to expand... -
marke said: ↑Who led Adam into sin, God? No Adam was led there by Eve, the Devil, and his own thinking. Today Christians wrestle against the world, the flesh, and the devil, but God is not the motivating cause of these forces and pressures, and it is blasphemous to accuse Him of being the cause underlying evil in the world.Click to expand...
It's just as blaphemous to assume that God is not. When God created Adam, it was "good" because that was exactly how God wanted him to be.
Can the creation undo what the Creator has done? Can the creation do anything but what the Creator has designed him to do? Satan is a creation of God and serves his purpose. The elect were created to give the Lord Jesus an elect congregation, a redeemed (by His work) people that loved him and would praise him becaue He is worthy.
It doesn't matter what happens, God is always glorified, because He is God.
:godisgood: -
If God is glorified by sin, it would be a sin not to sin.
All I can say is some have strayed far from the truth. -
The Biblicist Well-Known MemberSite SupporterHeavenly Pilgrim said: ↑If God is glorified by sin, it would be a sin not to sin.
All I can say is some have strayed far from the truth.Click to expand... -
Satan is a creation of God and serves his purpose.Click to expand...
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Heavenly Pilgrim said: ↑HP: Then sin is nothing more than the creation of a Holy God? You could not define a Holy God in a more wicked light than than that.Click to expand...
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The Biblicist said: ↑It is not that sin glorifies God, but whatever sin God permits He will ultimately overrule it for His glory (Psa. 76:10).Click to expand...
Joseph seemed to have a perspective agrreing with you here! -
savedbymercy said: ↑Was it Gods will and intention for Adam to bring sin into the world : For Rom 5:12 reads:
12Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
Yes indeed it was God's will for Adam to sin. For the purpose of creation of the world was all for Christ..
Col 1:16
16For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him:
Eph 3:9-11
9And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:
10To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,
11According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:
For Adam was made for a redemptive purpose; so how could adam fulfill Gods purpose without plunging all of His descendants into sin ?
I have yet been able to find a scripture that says all things were created for adam, but we do find a Scripture that states emphatically, that all things were created for Christ or unto Christ.
Now Christ eternal purpose was redemptive and involved the calling of the gentiles Eph 3:11, but lets pay close to the two words eternal purpose in vs 11
11According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:
Eternal purpose is literally, the Eternal plan or compact that God made in eternity past, within the purpose of the everlasting covenant.
Now many say at this juncture that they believe in the eternal purpose of Christ, but I am afraid it is merely lip service to the truth of Gods eternal purpose in Christ, because the very same ones will turn right around and deny that God wanted adam to sin. They say that God would have preferred not that adam sinned, but because he did sin, God foresaw it, so then God purposed Christ as a sort of back up plan ! But what kinda nonsense is that ? Thats actually contradicting and overturning the clear scripture teaching that that the Eternal Purpose was centered in Jesus Christ or its saying that Jesus Christ was secondary to Gods purpose of adam, which thinking is actually giving the purpose of adam the preeminence over the purpose of Christ, which undermines this:
Col 1:18
18And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
Now certainly, if Jesus Christ was a back up plan for the failure of adam, then adam had the preeminence over Christ in Gods First Purpose..
This thinking is a total repudiation of the truth that all things [ Including adam] were created by and for Jesus Christ..Click to expand...
Jas 1:13 Let no one say when he is tempted, "I am being tempted by God," for God cannot be tempted with evil, and he himself tempts no one.
Jas 1:14 But each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire.
Jas 1:15 Then desire when it has conceived gives birth to sin, and sin when it is fully grown brings forth death. -
Adam must sin to fulfill God's Eternal Purpose !
The world finds its purpose for being created within the eternal purpose of Jesus Christ Eph 3:9-11,6
9And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ:
10To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,
11According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:
Of which purpose was Redemptive
6That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:
For it [ The Eternal Purpose] was regarding the gentiles being partakers of the Gospel promises, which promises were grounded in the blood of the everlasting covenant..
Therefore it is nothing but spiritual blindness that people cannot understand that sin was part of Gods eternal purpose in creating the world, Adam must sin in order for the Eternal purpose of the gentiles being partakers of the gospel promises to be realized.. -
Heavenly Pilgrim said: ↑HP: Then sin is nothing more than the creation of a Holy God? You could not define a Holy God in a more wicked light than that.Click to expand...
Whenever I debate Calvinists, Lutherans, and anyone from the reformed denominations, I have had people say that we should not argue, since Calvinists and non-Calvinists believe the same when it comes to the basics. No way is it a small matter. -
Moriah: I have had people say that we should not argue, since Calvinists and non-Calvinists believe the same when it comes to the basics. No way is it a small matter.Click to expand...
HP: It is not a small matter. Truth and error have consequences, some eternal, and influence intents and subsequent actions. It is sad, but the basics of Calvinism and non-cals is no small separation. There is a vast void fixed between the two systems of thought and never the twain shall they be the same. One is a system of fatalism and determination, the other one of freedom and choice.
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