by Yelsew (italics mine)
We do have a limited God, Yelsew. His limits are sin in any way, form, or from whatever direction, unbelief, wilfull disobedience, attributing to Him words that are not His words, unholiness, and other manisfestations of a dead spirit, which is man's spirit.
That is why He had to do the work Himself. He had to take on human form, put on human nature, live a human life. He had to fulfill every iota of every law He gave - sacrificial laws, moral laws, ceremonial laws - and live the perfect life which no fallen man can.
Then He had to be the sin-bearer, the One who was scourged on that post for sins He did not commit, the One on whom His Father turned His back on, the One who thirsted a thirst no man is able to quench.
He will not countenance sin, whether from the unredeemed of humanity, or those whom He particularly redeemed. The former will suffer the consequences of their sin both in this life, and in eternity future, and the latter, in this life only in the form of chastisement, having no more judgment coming to them since He took God's judgment on their behalf.
Moses did not enter the promised land in this plane called time because He disobeyed, fueled by His temper. Lot was His saint, but lived an unsaintly life while on this finite plane we call time, Solomon was His elect from the womb but lived the remainder of His life in the misery He expressed, under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit, in Ecclessiastes.
In Jeremiah, He expressed His anger at the presumptuosness of prophets who attribute to Him words He never commanded them to speak.
He has His limits, boundaries He will not go beyond. He is bounded by His holiness, His character and His justice. His justice demands that sin be punished, and the punishment was pronounced in the garden of Eden - "on the day that thou eatest of it, thou shall surely die."
His salvation was planned long before the foundation of the world, and the names of His people written down by His own hand in the Lamb's book of life long before the foundation of the world.
We Do Not Limit Atonement!
Discussion in '2003 Archive' started by tyndale1946, Feb 16, 2003.
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pinoybaptist Active MemberSite Supporter
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As for the rest of your post, those are all reasons why I choose of my own free will to believe in Jesus, the son of God the Messiah! -
Brethren,
Your arguments for the 'unpardonable' sin are eloquent. Let me give you something from my own experience, may I?
I know a young girl, saved about two years ago. In a United Methodist Congregation. (Arminian).
This young lady had read, or heard of the unpardonable sin, but never the correct application of its teaching. During a 'youth revival' she professed belief in Christ. Upon this the church baptized her, just two short weeks later she fell into a severe depression. The church pastor, the family and various friends attempted to 'counsel' her out of this condition. They were at a loss as to what to do, they could not comfort her concerning her recent conversion in no way. Finally, she told them she believed she had committed the unpardonable sin.
(There are two errors in doctrine operating here, 1) that of being able to fall away again to be in a lost condition once saved; 2) error in teaching the application of the unpardonable sin; (I do not doubt the validity of the statement that anyone rejecting the Holy Spirit will meet the same fate as Israel.)
I question whether God would reveal His Salvation to someone, who either had committed the unpardonable sin, or of whom He knew would (because of his foreknowledge).
In the first, God would not have revealed this salvation to one who had committed this sin; in the second God would not have revealed this salvation to one who would later even be able to commit this sin.
This is why these doctrine are important to me brethren, they are to be used to feed the flock, not to feed upon the flock.
This girl was destitute, without any help from those around her (her brother is married to my wife's sister, this is my relation). The family and the church, of which I used to be a member, refused to let me speak to the girl. They knew her fear of having committed this sin, and they knew my belief, so they refused to let me at least try to help.
Ultimately, Only God can reveal any thing that is of any real wisdom, knowledge, truth and comfort, yet these defenders of 'free-will' were at a loss as to how to assist this young lady, because they are at a loss, either the Bible teaches she could profess of her own will, then commit the unpardonable sin and again be lost, or the Bible teaches that all who shall be saved are saved according to the Will of God and none of man's and He has prevented before, at present and in the future the commission of this sin by any who shall be saved.
In view of this, who limits the atonement?
God Bless.
Bro. Dallas
About two weeks after -
Your example shows a failure in the church's teaching. They left the new convert on her own to interpret scripture. That is not in accordance with scripture. The elder are to teach the younger, so that they are not led astray so easily.
Methodology and not message are at fault here. -
yelsew,
This failure resulted from the false teaching that those who are saved are done so by there own will, and thus, by there own will they are able to walk away from God and be "lost" again.
This is the failure.
Bro. Dallas -
The failure is that one so young in the faith was faced with the "unpardonable sin". This child in the faith did not have the opportunity to grow on the milk of the word, but for some reason was fed some of the meat. Give an infant solid meat, that the infant will at best founder and choke on it.
The failure is in the church's teaching and nurturing. There is no way to mealymouth this issue! -
It just seems to me that Calvinist think that the gospel is not sufficient enough of a revelation to enable one the wisdom they need to believe. So, they teach that their is another revelation by the "effectual call."
Why don't Calvinist believe that the Scripture provides sufficient wisdom to enable one to have faith in Christ? -
Yelsew, you stated-
"There is absolutely no way that finite man can limit infinite God. He's the one who sets limits not us. Our behavior does not in any way limit him, it limits us. God is the one who sets the limits for his creation."
I find this funny from someone who fights so hard for free will.
Again, back to the topic. Other than Ken H, everyone here limits atonement. Ken has revealed that he is a universalist, and therefore he is the only one who does not limit the atonement.
Let me ask a question to the two groups here.
Calvinist - Does God limit the atonement to be effective to the elect?
Arminians - Does God pay for the sins of those who reject him?
You see, everyone but universalist limit atonement. If you cannot see this, then you do not understand what limited atonement is. It does not mean that it isn't powerful enough to save all. It means that not everyone will be in heaven (unless you are a universalist you believe that) and therefore there will be some sin paid for by the individuals who commited those acts. -
It just seems to me that Calvinist think that the gospel is not sufficient enough of a revelation to enable one the wisdom they need to believe. So, they teach that their is another revelation by the "effectual call."
Why don't Calvinist believe that the Scripture provides sufficient wisdom to enable one to have faith in Christ? </font>[/QUOTE]Bro. Bill,
I do believe the scripture is able to do this, but only when the individual reading scripture is led of the Holy Spirit.
I know of a man who stole a Bible once and read it, came under conviction and repented and was saved, he returned the Bible. His life showed forth the fruits of the Spirit also.
I do not deny the ability of Scripture to do this; but I deny the ability of man of his own will reading to discern according to the flesh and glean any profit from it.
God Bless.
Bro. Dallas -
Since when is grace given by means of the amount of wisdom one has? Wouldn't that make heaven a group of wiser people then those that went to hell? So heaven is offered to the wise now?
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Sturgman said.
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Yelsew,
Are you unwilling to admit that you too limit the atonement? Why? Is it becuase to do so would remove a convenient rhetorical tool from your "aresneal"?
If you agree with Ken that all are savd, then say so. If you do not, then say so. But if you do not agree with KenH be prepared to admit you too limit the atonement. -
That is what I am saying, but Yelsew cannot grasp that.
As far as me laughing at Yelsew for saying that God limits our power is from his constant driving that his will is free.
I don't understand your objection to me observing some contradiction here. -
Let's see if I can't put this question in terms that we can all understand.
There are two ways of loking at the extent of the atonement. One is to look at the question of whom it is INTENDED to be effective for. The other is to simply look at it in terms of who it actually saves.
So that leaves us with 4 options:
1) Believe that the Atonement is limited in its intent and in terms of the number of people it saves.
2) Believe that the Atonement is intended for all, but that only some get saved through it.
3) Believe that the intent of the atonement is universal and so is its effect.
Now, only universalists beleive 3). Universalists may be Calvnaist or arminian.
Arminians tend top believe 2) So do many Calvanists.
The other Calvanists beleive in 1) .
Now Yelsew, which do you believe? -
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Yelsew,
Then you too limit the atonement. Its that simple. Deal with it and honestly admit it, don't try to make it look like you don't. -
Biblebelted;
Atonement is limited to those who believe. How ever the Calvinist limit it to those who are the elect. No where in scripture does it say that only the elect will be saved. It says in
Rev 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
Notice it says any man. I know Calvinist say man can't hear because they are dead in there sins. This however is pure Calvinist speculation and not in the Bible. Faith comes before regeneration with out it there is no regeneration.
Romanbear -
Bible belted,
WE AGREE ON SOMETHING.
Archangel needs to read this post.
This is the reason I don't focus our debate on the atonement. The focus should be on Total Inability for that is the foundation of Calvinism.
1. Total Inablity necessitates Effectual calling in order to give people the ability needed to be saved.
2. Effectual calling (or Irresistable grace) necessitates Unconditional election of individuals, which is God's deciding who is going to be effectually called and who will be left to eternal damnation.
3. Unconditional election supports number (1) in Bible Belts post that Christ only needed to die for the elect.
4. Perservence is supported by limited atonment because if Christ has atoned for the sins of the elect there is nothing that is going to keep them from being saved.
Even Calvinists say all of their points hang or fall together.
Calvinist still haven't made a case for Total Inability!
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