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Featured Were Men Born Again Before Pentecost? *for all Christians

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Hark, Feb 18, 2016.

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  1. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    Which has zilch to do with imparting life and immortality.

    10 but hath now been manifested by the appearing of our Saviour Christ Jesus, who abolished death, and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel, 2 Tim 1

    It is Christ that abolished death and imparts life and immortality, the gospel only tells of it.

    There's nothing new about the error of 'means regeneration', the Jews held to it too:

    39 Ye search the scriptures, because ye think that in them ye have eternal life; and these are they which bear witness of me; Jn 5

    Probably 99.99999% of Christianity today holds to 'gospel regeneration'. Just as the Jews, they think that in the gospel we have the 'formula to acquire immortality', when in actuality the gospel sheds light on it, it doesn't impart it, Christ's work is a done deal.
     
  2. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    And where is that Holy Place located? In Time or in Eternity?
     
  3. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    The Holy Place in view here is Heaven itself. We know Christ did not enter into the earthly Tabernacle/Temple, which is one of the primary points the Writer makes here. He contrasts the shadow/figure/parable with the true. Prior to Christ's Sacrifice all sacrifice for sin was temporal, temporary, and incomplete.

    The Writer makes the point that Christ's Sacrifice was the reality that the Services under the Law (and prior to that) pictured.

    Heaven is called "The Holiest of All," into which we have boldness to enter now, literally. See Hebrews 9:24

    And sorry, my computer is acting up and won't paste, or I would have posted it for you. Luckily they have installed ref-tagger so it should come up.


    God bless.
     
  4. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    So, is Heaven located in Time or in Eternity? If in Eternity then would you agree that the application of the Atonement is not limited by time?
     
  5. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    Not really, because while Heaven is in fact in Eternity, we see that God manifested into the World in order to make Atonement.

    Consider this, because I think it is one of the most notable statements in Scripture...

    Hebrews 10:19-20


    Prior to Christ's Sacrifice men entered, in parable/shadow/figure by entering through the veil. This pictures men coming into God's presence in the Holiest of All. But that was only a figure.

    Now consider the above verses, and the statement that the true entrance to God's presence was through the very flesh (death, John 6:51) of Christ. Christ opened the way into the Holiest for all men through that veil.

    But the fact remains that there is a point in time in both Time and Eternity when that Sacrifice was offered. When we see that it was not until then that Eternal Redemption was obtained (for us, which includes the redeemed of all time) we have a hard time supporting a view that sin was forgiven prior to the Cross of Christ. We shift from the temporal to the eternal at that point in time. The transgressions of the Old Testament Saints were redeemed, and it is at that point that the shadow is abrogated for the true.


    God bless.
     
  6. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    Yes, but where did God accept that Atonement? Wasn't it in Heaven? In Eternity? Is God limited by time in the application of the Atonement on those who believe?
     
  7. Hark

    Hark Well-Known Member

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    10 but hath now been manifested by the appearing of our Saviour Christ Jesus, who abolished death, and brought life and immortality to light through the gospel, 2 Tim 1

    I point out by your reference on how Jesus does that "through" as underlined.

    No ... it is written plainly in your reference as "through" the gospel, otherwise, you would be preaching universalism, right? Christ has done it and everybody is saved before they hear the gospel to believe in Him.

    39 Ye search the scriptures, because ye think that in them ye have eternal life; and these are they which bear witness of me; Jn 5

    The key words is that the Jews "think" that in searching the scriptures, there is eternal life in them. Thing is, if they could be saved that way, Jesus would not need to come. Jesus was pointing out that what was in the scripture, testifies of Him, and yet they would not come to Him for eternal life ( John 5:40 ) as that coming also is the same thing as believing in Him to receive that eternal life to be filled so as to hunger and thirst no more. John 6:35
     
  8. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    We couldn't really view it as being limited seeing that it was His Plan to, at that time, bring about Redemption.

    The New Covenant was a promise, which places the fulfillment of the promise in the future of the time the promise was given.

    Again, I point out this passage:


    Hebrews 9:12-15

    King James Version (KJV)


    12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

    13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:

    14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

    15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.


    So we have the Eras preceding Christ's entrance to the Holiest of All, Heaven, which is a literal creation of an entrance to the presence of God for men. Prior to this, men were separated from God on that level. Until the Cross, God ministered to men in this sphere, which included after they died, for even then they could not enter into the Holiest of All. The Veil they would, and do enter through is the flesh, the death of Christ, which holds a permanent place in History.

    Again, men were saved, from an eternal perspective, but, men were not saved in the eternal perspective, as we are now. And key to being translated into that Kingdom which is eternal is the Atonement/Reconciliation.


    God bless.
     
  9. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    Men are not saved before they are saved.

    I am not sure if you refer to a Theological Doctrine when you say Gospel Regeneration, but I would suggest to you that the state of all men depends on the Revelation they have received from God.

    We see a general pattern for the basis of varying degrees of judgment and reward taught in Scripture, and it is a certainty, in my view anyway, that all men will be judged according to their response to the Revelation provided them by God. This means believing and unbelieving alike.

    Now, consider the Revelation provided men in this Age: the Gospel of Jesus Christ. It is to that they will be judged according to, but, not so for those who were under the Covenant of Law:


    Hebrews 10:26-29


    King James Version (KJV)


    26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,

    27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

    28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:

    29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?


    If you look at the link, you will see that those guilty of treading Christ underfoot, counting His Death unholy, and rejecting the Ministry of the Comforter...will be judged more severely than they who were under Moses' Law (the Covenant of Law).

    Just like those under the Covenant of Law will be held more accountable than those ignorant of the Law (though they had an internal witness and the testimony of Creation which will still stand as a witness against them).

    So the bottom line would be that no man is saved apart from a positive response to the Gospel. And it is not just a matter of a man hearing the Gospel, but a matter of the necessity of the Comforter enlightening the natural mind to understand the Truth. Men do not work this out intellectually, but the Spirit imparts understanding, and they respond.


    God bless.
     
  10. Hark

    Hark Well-Known Member

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    Paul was talking about those that after having knowledge that there is no more sacrifice for sins, and yet continue as if there is still necessity, then that is what the sinning willfully part applies to when they treat the blood of the Son of God on par with the blood of goats and bull that could never take away sins that bears repeating.

    Hebrews 10:1 For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect. 2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? .....4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.

    10 By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. 11 And every priest standeth daily ministering and offering oftentimes the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins: 12 But this man, after he had offered one sacrifice for sins for ever, sat down on the right hand of God; 13 From henceforth expecting till his enemies be made his footstool. 14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified. 15 Whereof the Holy Ghost also is a witness to us:

    So it is after having knowledge that there is no more offering for sins is when they sin willfully by believing and practicing that there is still necessity to receive that one time sacrifice for sins again.

    So basically, Hebrews 10 th chapter is rebuking the Eucharist and the Mass when any believer receive the Eucharist as a means to make present Christ one time sacrifice for sins to be "received again".

    I would like to point out when God punishes them, they are still considered His people.

    Hebrews 10:30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
     
  11. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    While I too believe Paul was the Writer, we cannot be dogmatic about that. J. Vernon McGee and Harry Ironside make some great points as to why it is most likely Paul. Would make for a good thread.


    Agree wholeheartedly.

    In view, as mentioned in the previous post, is a contrast between the Covenant of Law and the New Covenant, and in Hebrews 10 there is a specific focus on the Remission of sins. The Covenant of Law was imperfect (incomplete), and the New Covenant and the Sacrifice of Christ Complete.

    That is the meaning of the words translated "perfection" and "Perfect" in this passage, not to mention a consistent theme of the writer.

    If you study this theme (that of "perfection/completion") it will clear up another challenging passage...

    (note-links inserted)

    Hebrews 6:1-6

    King James Version (KJV)


    1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

    2 Of the doctrine of baptisms, and of laying on of hands, and of resurrection of the dead, and of eternal judgment.

    3 And this will we do, if God permit.

    4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

    5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

    6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.


    We find our context for what is in view by backing up to see the rebuke the Writer gives his Hebrew brethren:


    Hebrews 5:10-14

    King James Version (KJV)


    10 Called of God an high priest after the order of Melchisedec.

    11 Of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing.

    12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.

    13 For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.

    14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.


    We can bracket his statement made in v.11 at this verse:


    Hebrews 6:11-12

    King James Version (KJV)


    11 And we desire that every one of you do shew the same diligence to the full assurance of hope unto the end:

    12 That ye be not slothful, but followers of them who through faith and patience inherit the promises.


    This is all one teaching yet some will unfortunately take the first 6 verses of Chapter 6 and use it to teach loss of salvation.

    In view is the same point you make above in which a contrast between Christ and the Covenant of Law and it's services. The writer rebukes them for their ignorance and exhorts them to go on unto "Perfection," which is Completion through and in Christ.


    That is true, and if you note in the verse that the knowledge is accompanied by reference to the Spirit of Grace, which, when we correlate this to Christ's teaching concerning the Comforter...


    John 16:7-9

    King James Version (KJV)


    7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

    8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

    9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;



    The "doing despite unto the Spirit of Grace" of Hebrews 10:29 differs from Stephen's statement "Ye do always resist the Holy Spirit" in one way: the revelation being imparted. Then, it was the revelation that accompanied the Covenant of Law, whereas for the Writer of Hebrew's audience the Gospel is in view, which he so definitively explains in this Epistle.


    No, actually it does not, for their was no Eucharist or Mass in that day. While some might apply it to that and in fact rebuke the beliefs of Catholics, we still maintain the Historical Context of the passage. Because people do not do this, we see grievous error such as interpreting the "forsaking of the assemblage of the brethren" as a rebuke for unfaithful church attendance, which trivializes what the Writer is teaching here. It is similar to Christ's teaching "Abide in Me" being used as a text for loss of salvation.

    That is not the Writer's, nor the Lord's intent.

    In view is a clear warning to Hebrews to "go on" from the Covenant of Law and it's services unto Christ and the New Covenant. They are to leave that which is incomplete and go on unto that which is complete. Christ's Priesthood as opposed to Levitical; Christ's Sacrifice as opposed to the sacrifices of the Law and those before the Covenant of Law was established (though this has particular correlation to Israel and the Law); Remission of Sins in completion as opposed to that which was incomplete and had to be, as the Writer states, repeated daily.

    While I would agree that transubstantiation is an erroneous doctrine, that is not found in this text. We have to first and foremost maintain Historical Context and then make applications to our modern day carefully. And personally, I do not see those who actually embrace substantiation as in danger of idolatry, as we consider they are still trusting Christ. I visited a Methodist church once where they were teaching it, lol. I was very surprised.

    But ultimately, salvation is not a matter of doctrinal flawlessness, and if it were, we would all be in trouble, because we all start out as babes, not knowing much more than the fact that we are sinners separated from God, that Christ is the SAvior, and that we must look to Him to save us from our sin.

    We can see similar errors in all groups, so unless we want to condemn the entire Body of Christ for her ignorance, then we should show a little grace in regards to ignorant doctrines some have been indoctrinated into.

    If God does not condemn us, shouldn't we seek to extend His grace to others He has shed His blood for?



    God bless.
     
  12. Hark

    Hark Well-Known Member

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    They usually include verses 7 & 8 too.

    Hebrews 6:4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, 5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, 6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

    Verses 4-6 is the same way of saying that you cannot receive the Holy Ghost again, because He is in us always, thus OSAS is true.

    Below in verse 7 is a symbolic reference to the foundation being laid in Christ Jesus as life has been received.

    7 For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:

    And below in verse 8 is on what was built on that foundation as wood. stubble, and hay will be judged and burned away.

    8 But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.

    But the earth has received the rain just as that foundation which was in Christ Jesus remains.

    That is what I meant. Paul was rebuking the sin of believing that there is still necessity to receive another sacrifice for sins which is the basis for the Eucharist and the Mass for what it is; to make the one time sacrifice for sin "present" during the Mass to receive "again".

    It is.. when taken into account that it is to rebuke any practice that there is necessity to receive another offering for the remission of sins by the recipient for the recipient himself.

    You are correct in regards to Hebrews, but Paul addresses transubstantiation as the idolatry part of the Eucharist in the Mass below.

    1 Corinthians 10: 4 Wherefore, my dearly beloved, flee from idolatry. 15 I speak as to wise men; judge ye what I say. 16 The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ? 17 For we being many are one bread, and one body: for we are all partakers of that one bread. 18 Behold Israel after the flesh: are not they which eat of the sacrifices partakers of the altar? 19 What say I then? that the idol is any thing, or that which is offered in sacrifice to idols is any thing? 20 But I say, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to devils, and not to God: and I would not that ye should have fellowship with devils. 21 Ye cannot drink the cup of the Lord, and the cup of devils: ye cannot be partakers of the Lord's table, and of the table of devils. 22 Do we provoke the Lord to jealousy? are we stronger than he?

    If you consider how a priests is to be celibate in order to perform the Mass, it does present them as having power to do that which they claim Christ is volunteering for.

    Any inanimate object that believes to have the presence of god in it is an idol.

    So it is like God knew we need these words from Paul to rebuke what is going on today with the Eucharist and the Mass. Of course, only God can cause the increase as only He can recover them from the snares of the devil that are taken captive in doing his will. 2 Timothy 2:24-26

    May God bless you too.
     
  13. vooks

    vooks Active Member

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    Yours is basically a false dilemma; either there is Freewill or the Father draws us. The truth is both work together. The Father draws all who come to Him but He does not force Himself in nobody, and this is why there is such a sin called rebellion.

    Think through the comsequences of your claims. If the Father draws us to Himself regardless of our will, then is it in order to say that those who perish are the ones denied this lifesaving privilege of being drawn to Himself?
     
  14. Hark

    Hark Well-Known Member

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    Read John 3:18-21 as His word explains why some do not believe even in His name.
     
  15. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    In the above Paul speaks in regards to the Priesthood eating of the sacrifices they offered. The point is that the sacrifice itself (of the Law) does not make that animal something sacred or give it a meaning beyond what it was, which was simply an animal that was dying in the place of the sinner.

    This is equally true of the sacrifices made by Gentiles to idols, meaning the idols are nothing and that eating of that meat (offered to those idols) was, like eating of the sacrifices of the Law, not a big deal. The point is to ascribe no reality to the idolatry of Gentiles. Do not join with Gentiles in offering up to demons.

    God bless.
     
  16. vooks

    vooks Active Member

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    You are adept at misquoting scriptures so I will not settle with a mere reading of that, I will instead ask you to substantiate your claim from John 3:18-21

    Meanwhile, was Jesus dishonest with His offer seeing it is only available to afew?

    John 7:37 (KJV)
    In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink
    .
     
  17. vooks

    vooks Active Member

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    @Hark,
    You need to learn to base your claims and statements on scriptures and not gossip or hearsay.
    Where is transubstantiation mentioned here?

    If you are to have any chances of converting a believer in transubstantiation or any error,you need Wisdom of God from scriptures and not wild claims because an informed believer can rightfully dismiss your correction as baseless
     
  18. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    The Free Will issue is easily resolved when we maintain New Testament teaching.

    Scripture is clear that men are born separated from God, and have no ability to seek after God. Their proclivity is one of sin, not righteousness.

    We are taught that God's revelation has been progressive in respect to direct revelation (God speaking to man directly, or to men through other men, and through Scripture), and that there is still an internal witness and the testimony of Creation itself which reveals God. Men will be held accordingly accountable for their response to those three means of revelation. And the bottom line is that it is not that men can of their own will turn to God, they are first dependent upon the revelation of truth which has always been accomplished by the Spirit of God.


    This implies that they come of their own free will, which is not the case.


    John 16:7-9

    King James Version (KJV)


    7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

    8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

    9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;



    I agree for the most part, it is man who is responsible for their response to the intervention of God.

    However, that does not mean that in the temporal we nullify any "force" imposed by the Lord. Jonah is a good example of that.

    And we can be certain that the Ministry of Conviction performed by the Comforter is independent of man's involvement in regards to initiation. God, and only God, is credited with salvation, and this means from the moment men are born they are dead to the truth, and in need of enlightenment that they might respond. Most will do despite unto the Spirit of Grace, but a "few" will acknowledge the Truth and cry out to God.


    Not really, no. We are born with no ability but to sin and rebel against God. This is the result of what we are born into, which a state of being separated from God. That separation is remedied in Reconciliation, where men are reunited with God , thereby receiving life. Christ states in John 6:53 that apart from Him men have no life. The life in view is not physical life, but spiritual life, eternal life, which can only be attained to through immersion into that Life. And when we are Baptized into Christ, when we are indwelt by God, we then have life.

    Eternal life is not a substance poured into believers, it is a Person indwelling them.


    So you feel that you decided one day you wanted to be saved? Is that how it worked? Or did God intervene into your blindness to truth and bring you to conviction?

    You had, within your natural ability, every right to reject the truth, just as every man has. But you did not. Now think about that, and ask who you are going to praise for turning to Christ in faith. Yourself? Or the God Who took the time to convict you of sin, righteousness, and judgment?

    There is only One means of Eternal Life...


    John 12:32

    King James Version (KJV)

    32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.



    God bless.
     
  19. Darrell C

    Darrell C Well-Known Member
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    Repeated post.
     
  20. vooks

    vooks Active Member

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    This is wholly unnecessary, and dare I say glib

    Let's focus on those who perish.
    Is it God's will that they perish?

    PS
    Don't overwhelm me with verses, I will ask for those when I'm persuaded you are imagining your own 'truths'
     
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