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Featured Were Old Testament Saints Placed in a "Holding Cell" Before the Cross?

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by KenH, Jan 20, 2023.

  1. KenH

    KenH Well-Known Member

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    During the past year I came across some people on Facebook who advocate that Old Testament saints were not justified before Christ finished His work on the cross. It was hard to try to pin them down but the implication of what they were teaching was that Old Testament saints were placed in what I would describe as a "holding cell" for hundreds, even thousands of years, until Christ finished His work on the cross.

    Is there anyone here who advocates such a thing or would like to try to defend such a notion?
     
  2. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Was Abraham in said "holding cell?". The upper Sheol. David wrote in Psalms 86:13, ". . . For great is thy mercy toward me: and thou hast delivered my soul from the lowest hell. . . ."
    [Luke 16:19-31, Deuteronomy 32:22.]
    Ephesians 4:8, ". . . Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. . . ."
     
  3. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

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    I’ve heard similar arguments from those who hold to “soul sleep” theology. I don’t think it’s supported in scripture.

    peace to you
     
  4. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Holding cell? I haven't heard that before.

    But I would say that the OT saints' faith in God and His Word was counted as righteous, without this being the same as men today (post-resurrection) being justified.

    I'm not sure that's what you are talking about.
     
  5. KenH

    KenH Well-Known Member

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    I disagree. The elect have always been saved in the same way - from Genesis until the second coming and the establishment of the new heavens and earth - through the finished work of Christ Jesus on behalf of the God's elect and conditioned totally on Christ alone, whether prospectively or retrospectively.
     
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  6. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    I disagree. But was that what you were talking about?
     
  7. George Antonios

    George Antonios Well-Known Member

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    I believe and teach basically that.
     
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  8. Silverhair

    Silverhair Well-Known Member

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    What is "soul sleep" and who would hold to such an idea?
     
  9. KenH

    KenH Well-Known Member

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    Not sure if you are saying the same thing those folks were on Facebook. I sort of left that discussion with them as it was going nowhere and was becoming very heated and divisive. I could not pin them down as to terminology, but they were basically advocating for a form of, for lack of a better term, "limbo" for Old Testament saints until the cross, at least similar to the Catholic teaching of "Limbo of the Patriarchs".
     
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  10. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    "Soul sleep," is a teaching of Seventh Day Adventist.
     
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  11. canadyjd

    canadyjd Well-Known Member

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    As I understand it, “soul sleep” means a person is unaware of anything after they die until the day of judgment. They don’t go to heaven or hell. The soul “sleeps”

    peace to you
     
  12. Salty

    Salty 20,000 Posts Club
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    As well as Jehovah Witness and Christadelphians
     
    #12 Salty, Jan 20, 2023
    Last edited: Jan 20, 2023
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  13. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    Yea....that isn't what I was saying.

    When I was a kid the SBC churches typically taught of "Paradise" for the saints. That or the "Bosom of Abraham". The idea was that the dead went to Sheol, and this was divided by a gulf that couldn't be crossed. One side was paradise and the other was a place of torture. But those who died were aware.

    It isn't something that concerned me then (or concerns me now) so I can't speak much on that idea.
     
  14. Salty

    Salty 20,000 Posts Club
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  15. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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  16. George Antonios

    George Antonios Well-Known Member

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    Every heresy has a grain of truth; that is how heresies can be successful.
     
    #16 George Antonios, Jan 21, 2023 at 8:56 AM
    Last edited: Jan 21, 2023 at 9:25 AM
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  17. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    Two of teachings against soul sleep: The rich man and Lazarus account in Luke 16:19-31. Note Abraham's appeal to Moses and prophets. And then Christ's post ascension 2 Corinthians 5:8 of believers being absent from their body being present with the Lord.
     
  18. Salty

    Salty 20,000 Posts Club
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    Yet, some say that is only a parable -thus it is not an actual fact
     
  19. 37818

    37818 Well-Known Member

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    An interpretation that is purely based on it being a story. Abraham, Moses and prophets are not of parables. Deuteronomy 32:22, Song of Solomon 8:6, Psalms 86:13.
     
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  20. Salty

    Salty 20,000 Posts Club
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    In addition that parable is the only one which uses the actual name the individuals.
     
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