That's not what I said. I said scripture says tongues are a sign for the unbeliever, which is what 1 Cor 14:22 says. Why are you twisting my words?
The people in Cornelius' house. Read carefully; they hadn't believed on Jesus yet. It was after Peter preached Jesus to them that they received the Holy Spirit.
Were the tongues the same?
Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by John of Japan, Sep 8, 2012.
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Are the tongues in Acts and 1 Corinthians the same?
Poll closed Oct 8, 2012.
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One more note...We still have unbelievers today! So why would tongues cease if they were to be ONLY a sign to unbelievers? -
Strictly MY Opinion!
With all that has been said above about tongues and whether or not they are operative in the world in our day I'd like to express an idea which I will CLEARLY declare is my opinion and definitely subject to correction (OR substantiation) if ANYBODY more learned than I can show me from scripture where I'm right...or wrong.
I have always been of the opinion (and I believe Biblically so)that tongues,healers, etc. as presented in 1 Cor.12 -14 are NOT operative in our day since the need for sign gifts passed away with the completion of the finished Word of God. That said...God is still God and though I don't believe He will or would ever act in a manner contrary to His Word, does anyone here agree that it MIGHT be possible...under very narrow circumstances.... that He MIGHT still find it necessary or beneficial to impart to someone of His choosing, the (biblical)gift of tongues (miraculously given gift of a human language(s) to someone who previously DID NOT speak said language(s)) IF there was an instance where there was no access to copies of the printed Word of God....and FOR the purpose of communicating the Gospel to a group of lost people? Would THAT be possible? Do the scriptures PROHIBIT this? Just curious if anybody thinks this might be possible in our day.
Bro.Greg -
BTW, I can get an unsaved Catholic or perhaps even a Muslim to read the words "Christ is Lord." That doesn't mean that they are saying it by the power of the Holy Spirit or that they are saved, does it? It is a simple mental exercise.
When you get to know the Holy Spirit! He will lead you to the truth. Search the scriptures and you will find he can not be put in a box like most relligions want to do!Click to expand...
I do know the Holy Spirit well. No doubt far better than you do. He has led me to the truth, not the mysticism you know. You search the Scriptures not your experience, and you will find out how wrong you are. Why do the Charismatics have to learn languages if the gift of tongues is still operative today? Why can't you answer that question? They must learn foreign languages because the gift of tongues has ceased. Those are the plain facts. What passes today as tongues are fraudulent; they are of Satan.
Again, be careful...What God is doing today, not to call it demonic!Click to expand...
I have explained this in another thread! You have the wrong idea of tongues! It is supernatural, a language that does not have to be learned! I know a lot of missionaries that speak in tongue, but they do not use it to spread the gospel, because that is not the purpose of it!Click to expand...
ANd you are anyone else has not proved in SCRIPTURES it has ceased! Only your lack of experience has proved it to yourself! UNBLLIEF in what the Bible says about it! You have to believe before you experience it! Faith comes first!Click to expand...
You just admitted you put experience above the Word of God.
Faith comes first you say. Faith in what? Faith in Christ and his word, or faith in tongues? It is the former not the latter. You base your faith on experience not God-given revelation that God has given through the inspired Word of God. That is sad.
However, to satisfy you, I will give you experience, but I doubt if it will change your mind.
On the mission field, I was invited to preach at a church. At the time I did not know it was a Charismatic church until it was too late to turn back. So I preached on 1Cor.12-14. By the time I finished, a congregation of about 100 was split down the middle. Out of it a new Baptist church was formed, all of whom renounced tongues, and most of them got saved that night. The others wanted to hold on to their sinful practices. The "pastor" I talked to at length. When I asked him to give his testimony, I found out that he based his testimony entirely on speaking in tongues. He wasn't even a saved individual. Neither were most of the people in that "Charismatic church." There is experience for you!!
No, my experience backs up my doctrine! You do not experience because you do not believe. (I am not saying you are not saved. But doctrine in the Bible has to be believed by faith..believing before you see it. You see it in the word...you believe it...you live it!)Click to expand...
My faith is in Christ; yours is not.
Maybe they are allowing God to open their eyes! I know I did! I went to God seeking truth! ....and don't tell me my father would teach me a lie! Make sure that what you believe is not just because man has taught it to you in seminary. Sincerely search this out!Click to expand...
You guys are the ones that are hung up on tongues, I was wanting to talk about the whole 3 chapters in Cor. I never said tongues accomplished this! I said the freedom to let the Holy Spirit work did it!Click to expand...
The Holy Spirit does not give the gift of tongues today. It comes from another source--you decide the source but it is not God.
I know I have the Holy Spirit. He dwells in me; He fills me. I have the freedom to do as He wills me to do. I have been in nations that you will never be in, and great works have been accomplished because of it, because of the work of the Holy Spirit. But it never involved tongues.
No, because I have prayed as God said and ask for interpretation...and he has given it to me!Click to expand...
Awesome! If it was of satan it would not lead me closer to my Father! Since the baptism in the Holy Spirit..I have more boldness, more joy, more peace..do not get offended. And have experience things I have never experienced in the spirit! Not to mentioned a zeal for the Word of God!Click to expand...
DHK and others that do not believe the Holy Spirit manifest the same as Cor. 12 says....
I have been where you are! My heart goes out to you! Because their is life (salvation) and there is the more abundant! Seek, knock and ask! Our God is able and faithful~Click to expand...
Let me ask you:
Have you obeyed the Great Commission like John of Japan.
Have you forsaken all that you have, left all, denied yourself, and followed Jesus.
What has been your part in "going into all the world and preaching the gospel to every creature." Have you done that? -
awaken said: ↑ok, I see that...I am answering so many threads about the same subject. THis thread is " are tongues the same" My answer is still yes, same manifestation, different languages for the same purpose..magnifying God! Speaking to God! Every example shows the people speaking to God! PRaising God Mangnifying God. Do unbelievers witness this? Yes! That is a sign that it is real! But if it is not interpreted then it will be a sign then of judgement and they will think we are mad! That is why Paul corrects the church so that everything is done right...not forbidden! Now until you can show me where tongues were not speaking to God...like vs 2 in Cor. 14 says! then we will just have to disagree!Click to expand...
My point is that you said it was always for a sign to the unbeliever, when the saved Gentiles started speaking in tongues...where were the unbelievers? THe whole house was saved believers.Click to expand...
And let us not forget the purpose of having the Gentiles in this passage speak in tongues: to show the Jews that God accepted more than just the Jews.
One more note...We still have unbelievers today! So why would tongues cease if they were to be ONLY a sign to unbelievers?Click to expand...
Now, I have to warn you: does scripture say that tongues are for a sign to unbelievers, not to believers? (Answer: Yes.) To say any different is to deny what scripture says, and to add to it. That's not my personal opinion; either scripture says it, or we make a case to support something despite what scripture says.
Convince me that scripture does not say that tongues are a sign for unbelievers, not believers; but you're going to have center your entire argument around 1 Cor 14:22. -
John of Japan Well-Known MemberSite Supporterawaken said: ↑Maybe you can start a thread on the "Baptism in the Holy Spirit" and the "fulness of the Holy Spirit". I can not say what all Charismatics believe about the Holy Spirit...I can only share what I have learned and experienced. Raised and still in a Baptist church...but believe the manifestation of the Holy Spirit was given to the church on the day of Pentecost and as far as I can read...is still here!Click to expand...
That is great! Many have come to the cross through great evangalism! But what is missing in most churches is after we get them to the cross (salvation)we need to teach them how to walk in the Power of the resurrected Lord!Click to expand...
Now if you follow the usual Charismatic doctrine of the Christian life, based on 19th century Holiness pneumatology (the doctrine of the Holy Spirit) you will believe that the filling of the Holy Spirit empowers you in the Christian life, a "second blessing," and you may even believe in a form of perfectionism. But nothing could be further from the truth.
As I've said, the filling is for power. The Apostle Paul used a very different metaphor for the Holy Spirit and Christian life, bearing fruit. Fruit bearing doesn't occur with one event, but is a process. Likewise, the Christian life is a process of walking in the Spirit (Gal. 5; nothing about the gifts in Gal.), which then produces fruit.
No, not late comers! They have been here throughout history!
If you search out commentaries printed prior to the 20th century, you will search in vain for a clearly stated cessationist view. The supernatural gifts and miraculous things waned during the Middle Ages, but so did the doctrine of justification by faith. I believe the church lost a lot during Dark ages. But to say that God no longer operates today by pointing to the dry spiritual season of the Middle Ages is to give validity to that time of spiritual decline. However, the Reformation brought a revovery of truth. During the dark time some of the fringe groups tried to maintain NT Christianity. The church at Rome often viewed those groups as heretics. Baptist find their roots among those fringe groups.Click to expand...
I also believe that there is no proof whatsoever of Pentecostal/Charismatic doctrine before the 20th century. Now prove that there was--you can't. Of course there were no stated cessationist views before the 20th century in the commentaries or elsewhere. There was no need for them because no one was saying the gifts were today and we should all be speaking in tongues and healing. I've already documented how there were almost non-existant until the Azusa St. Revival of 1906, except for the possible exceptions of the Montanists and Irvingites, two cult-like groups.
No, again you are wrong...I have never said the rest is falsehood! That is why I am still in a Baptist church! They have a lot of truth! Just because I believe that the gifts are still here does not mean what you are implying here.Click to expand...
Sorry if I come across prideful...I do not mean to! I do feel very strong about the manifestations of the Holy Spirit and if in defending my belief I have come across prideful..again, I am sorry! My heart is to share this so others can walk in it...just as I want them to come to the cross! I also want them to live the abundant life..the life of Power in the Holy Spirit!Click to expand...
This Charismatic arrogance is a result of the Manifest Sons of God heresy. You don't realize it, but you are influenced by this heresy. Are you aware of the doctrine of the Manifest Sons of God and the Latter Rain doctrine? -
DHK said: ↑Not everyone speaks by the Spirit of God. That was the problem. There were Corinthians that were speaking by "another spirit" unwittingly calling Jesus accursed. They were doing that without knowing it, until someone recognized the language they were speaking in. You could be doing the same thing, since you have no understanding of what you are saying. In 1Cor.14 they were real languages, but the Corinthians did not understand the languages that they were speaking, and sometimes, out of their own carnality, they were praising Satan rather than Christ without realizing it. Can you give definitive proof that you are not doing the same thing?Click to expand...
BTW, I can get an unsaved Catholic or perhaps even a Muslim to read the words "Christ is Lord." That doesn't mean that they are saying it by the power of the Holy Spirit or that they are saved, does it? It is a simple mental exercise.Click to expand...
This was a rebuke. He said if you speak in tongues and no one knows what you are saying they don't even know when to say Amen! How foolish is that!! I am a missionary. Before I learned the language I felt awkward in such situations also. They would speak and pray in a language I didn't know. In fact it was hard to discern when they would say "Amen" at times. I know what Paul is talking about. There is no understanding. It is foolish to talk in a language when no one can understand you.Click to expand...
DO NOT FALSELY ACCUSE!
I do know the Holy Spirit well. No doubt far better than you do. He has led me to the truth, not the mysticism you know. You search the Scriptures not your experience, and you will find out how wrong you are. Why do the Charismatics have to learn languages if the gift of tongues is still operative today? Why can't you answer that question? They must learn foreign languages because the gift of tongues has ceased. Those are the plain facts. What passes today as tongues are fraudulent; they are of Satan. THat one is easy! BECAUSE TONGUES ARE NOT TO SPREAD THE GOSPELS..they are speaking to God, and God understands all languages...and a lot of missionaries do speak in tongues.
If tongues has ceased they are not of God; there is only one other source left isn't there? Satan is a great imitator.Click to expand...
The purpose of it was to edify the church. Edification came through teaching. It was to teach. They taught through tongues because the Word of God was not yet completed. Tongues always had to be interpreted, always. It was that way so that all could be taught and edified.Click to expand...
To those who believe we have proved; to those who believe not, they don't accept it. Their hearts are hardened to the truth of God's Word.
You just admitted you put experience above the Word of God.
Faith comes first you say. Faith in what? Faith in Christ and his word, or faith in tongues? It is the former not the latter. You base your faith on experience not God-given revelation that God has given through the inspired Word of God. That is sad.Click to expand...
However, to satisfy you, I will give you experience, but I doubt if it will change your mind.
On the mission field, I was invited to preach at a church. At the time I did not know it was a Charismatic church until it was too late to turn back. So I preached on 1Cor.12-14. By the time I finished, a congregation of about 100 was split down the middle. Out of it a new Baptist church was formed, all of whom renounced tongues, and most of them got saved that night. The others wanted to hold on to their sinful practices. The "pastor" I talked to at length. When I asked him to give his testimony, I found out that he based his testimony entirely on speaking in tongues. He wasn't even a saved individual. Neither were most of the people in that "Charismatic church." There is experience for you!!Click to expand...
You are wrong. Your doctrine (which always needs to come first) does not back up your experience. Your faith is blind, not based on the Bible. You are like the Muslim who has blind faith. He believes that if he straps a bomb on himself, blows himself up as a "martyr," that then he will guarantee himself a place in paradise. That is blind faith. What does he base that on? What guarantee does he have? The word of a man? That is a flimsy guarantee. My faith is not blind. It is backed up by the historical death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ. Christ lives today. His tomb is empty. My faith is based on facts. Your faith is blind. You don't even know what you are saying. Faith in what?
My faith is in Christ; yours is not.Click to expand...
No. We base our beliefs on the Word of God; you base your beliefs on your experience. Thus you have gone astray from God's word into heresy.Click to expand...
That is an inferred false accusation.
The Holy Spirit does not give the gift of tongues today. It comes from another source--you decide the source but it is not God.
I know I have the Holy Spirit. He dwells in me; He fills me. I have the freedom to do as He wills me to do. I have been in nations that you will never be in, and great works have been accomplished because of it, because of the work of the Holy Spirit. But it never involved tongues.Click to expand...
Good. Give us some examples. What languages have you spoken in?
Maybe Satan isn't opposing you. You haven't convinced me yet.Click to expand...
You haven't been where I have been, because you don't know where I have been.
Let me ask you:
Have you obeyed the Great Commission like John of Japan.
Have you forsaken all that you have, left all, denied yourself, and followed Jesus.
What has been your part in "going into all the world and preaching the gospel to every creature." Have you done that?Click to expand...
I would appreciate it if you are going to reply to my threads that you would keep the personal attacks out and stay with defending SCRIPTURES!Click to expand... -
Don said: ↑The question is, what is it that you think we're disagreeing about? You seem to think that we're supposed to magnify God in a foreign tongue; I say tongues were given to the people in Acts in order to show God's miracles to the unbelievers, not as a requirement of some kind.Click to expand...
I disagree; when were they saved? Before Peter preached Jesus to them, or after?Click to expand...
And let us not forget the purpose of having the Gentiles in this passage speak in tongues: to show the Jews that God accepted more than just the Jews.Click to expand...
When was the last time you spoke in a tongue, and someone said, "How is it that you know my native language?"Click to expand...
Now, I have to warn you: does scripture say that tongues are for a sign to unbelievers, not to believers? (Answer: Yes.) To say any different is to deny what scripture says, and to add to it. That's not my personal opinion; either scripture says it, or we make a case to support something despite what scripture says.Click to expand...
Convince me that scripture does not say that tongues are a sign for unbelievers, not believers; but you're going to have center your entire argument around 1 Cor 14:22.Click to expand... -
John of Japan said: ↑No offense, but you seem to know very little about the Charismatic Movement. Its original impetus was to go into already established churches (as the original newsletter had as a goal, which I've already established) and make them into Charismatic churches (often splitting them in the process, something you've never said is wrong to do). And the whole movement was founded on ecumemenicalism. Therefore there are Charismatic Baptist churches (like yours), there are Lutheran ones, Catholic ones, etc., as well as strictly Charismatic churches (a later development in history).
No this is not missing, and once again you are being presumptuous. How would you know what is taught in most of our Baptist churches? I believe most of them teach an excellent doctrine of the Christian walk with God, and I've preached in about 50 of them in the past year of furlough.Click to expand...
Now if you follow the usual Charismatic doctrine of the Christian life, based on 19th century Holiness pneumatology (the doctrine of the Holy Spirit) you will believe that the filling of the Holy Spirit empowers you in the Christian life, a "second blessing," and you may even believe in a form of perfectionism. But nothing could be further from the truth.
As I've said, the filling is for power. The Apostle Paul used a very different metaphor for the Holy Spirit and Christian life, bearing fruit. Fruit bearing doesn't occur with one event, but is a process. Likewise, the Christian life is a process of walking in the Spirit (Gal. 5; nothing about the gifts in Gal.), which then produces fruit.[/quote I agree that fruit producing is a process!
I said nothing at all about the Middle Ages. You are jousting at a windmill. I believe there have always been Bible believing Christians.
I also believe that there is no proof whatsoever of Pentecostal/Charismatic doctrine before the 20th century. Now prove that there was--you can't. Of course there were no stated cessationist views before the 20th century in the commentaries or elsewhere. There was no need for them because no one was saying the gifts were today and we should all be speaking in tongues and healing. I've already documented how there were almost non-existant until the Azusa St. Revival of 1906, except for the possible exceptions of the Montanists and Irvingites, two cult-like groups.
Huh? Do you even understand what I'm writing here? Of course you never said the rest is falsehood. I did! Once again, if the Charismatics are mistaken on tongues, the rest of Charismatic doctrine is false. You know, if you are going to continue to attempt to be an advocate for Charismatic doctrine, you really should study it out a lot more.Click to expand...
We can live the abundant life, the life of power in the Holy Spirit, entirely without Charismatic doctrine, and we do. To say otherwise as you are intimating here is arrogant--makes you look like you think you are better than we are. Yes you do come across as prideful by such statements.
This Charismatic arrogance is a result of the Manifest Sons of God heresy. You don't realize it, but you are influenced by this heresy. Are you aware of the doctrine of the Manifest Sons of God and the Latter Rain doctrine?Click to expand...Click to expand... -
awaken said: ↑Where in the whole Bible does it say the Corinthians were speaking by ANOTHER SPIRIT?? It doesn't! THey were speaking well, giving thanks WELL...the assembly just was not being edified. He did not tell them to quit speaking in tongues. He told them to keep silent IN THE CHURCH, and SPEAK TO GOD. That was the purpose of tongues...speaking to God. Just in the church to have an interpretation.
Exactly! that is why they are saying IN THE SPIRIT. Becasue it is the Spirit that gives the utterance. In other words, you are speaking the perfect will of God in "praying/speaking in tongues."
I am not disagreeing with Paul! But he also said you give thanks well! So praying in the spirit is good JUST IN THE ASSEMBLEY make sure you have interpretation.
DO NOT FALSELY ACCUSE!
I do know the Holy Spirit well. No doubt far better than you do. He has led me to the truth, not the mysticism you know. You search the Scriptures not your experience, and you will find out how wrong you are. Why do the Charismatics have to learn languages if the gift of tongues is still operative today? Why can't you answer that question? They must learn foreign languages because the gift of tongues has ceased. Those are the plain facts. What passes today as tongues are fraudulent; they are of Satan. THat one is easy! BECAUSE TONGUES ARE NOT TO SPREAD THE GOSPELS..they are speaking to God, and God understands all languages...and a lot of missionaries do speak in tongues.
THe Bible never said they will cease...UNTIL the coming of our Lord! Man's doctrine came up with the ceasing! YES! Satan imimtates everything Christ does...so what does that prove...that Christ is not real??? That kind of logic can not disprove tongues.
Again, so much theory without scriptures! Show where they taught in tongues...they did not teach in tongues. When a tongue is interpretated it edifies the body, yes! But it was not teaching the word.
Who is fasely accusing? Faith is believing the Word of God before you see it! I read the word....I believed the word...I experienced the word! I believe that puts experience last! This really is getting tiresome...having to defend your twisting my post!
And you are going to base all churches on that one experience! Not all churches that believe in the manifestations of the Spirit is false!
Wow! is this not against forum rules? All this theory and attack and no scriptures to back it up.
Again...accusing me of heresy because I do not believe the way you do? I have shown scriptures! You have debated and twisted my post!
Great! I am glad you have a part in leading many to Christ!
It is not my job to convince you, that is the Holy Spirits! I just share what He has shown me :tongue3: Unbelief will keep us ALL blinded to truth! DHK, you want proof before you believe! THat is the difference with us! I believed what I saw in the Word before I believed or had proof!
Oh, but I am...I am on many forums! It goes all around the world! Not all are called to do the same ministry!
I would appreciate it if you are going to reply to my threads that you would keep the personal attacks out and stay with defending SCRIPTURES!Click to expand...Click to expand... -
Michael Wrenn said: ↑Be prepared to have your salvation questioned here if you deviate from the party line -- and that will likely be the mildest thing that will be said to you!Click to expand...
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awaken said: ↑Where in the whole Bible does it say the Corinthians were speaking by ANOTHER SPIRIT?? It doesn't! THey were speaking well, giving thanks WELL...the assembly just was not being edified. He did not tell them to quit speaking in tongues. He told them to keep silent IN THE CHURCH, and SPEAK TO GOD. That was the purpose of tongues...speaking to God. Just in the church to have an interpretation.Click to expand...
1 Corinthians 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.
--Not to take up space I am only quoting the 3rd verse. Read verses 1 and 2 to get the context. Now there are two spirits here. One is the Holy Spirit, and one is a demonic spirit. No man speaking by the Holy Spirit will call Jesus accursed. If the man is speaking in tongues (context), then what kind of spirit will call Christ accursed? A demonic spirit of course? Is that not plain to see? Many tongue-speakers speak through demons without realizing it. I can give you examples but I don't want to take up the space to do it. I want to rely on the Word of God, not experience like you do. They spoke by the power of demons, and called Christ accursed. Is that not plain for you to see? Why else would they be calling Christ accursed?? They had a pagan background (vs.2), which in the past they spoke in pagan past. They reverted back to it.
Exactly! that is why they are saying IN THE SPIRIT. Becasue it is the Spirit that gives the utterance. In other words, you are speaking the perfect will of God in "praying/speaking in tongues."Click to expand...
I am not disagreeing with Paul! But he also said you give thanks well! So praying in the spirit is good JUST IN THE ASSEMBLEY make sure you have interpretation.Click to expand...
DO NOT FALSELY ACCUSE!
I do know the Holy Spirit well. No doubt far better than you do. He has led me to the truth, not the mysticism you know. You search the Scriptures not your experience, and you will find out how wrong you are. Why do the Charismatics have to learn languages if the gift of tongues is still operative today? Why can't you answer that question? They must learn foreign languages because the gift of tongues has ceased. Those are the plain facts. What passes today as tongues are fraudulent; they are of Satan.Click to expand...THat one is easy! BECAUSE TONGUES ARE NOT TO SPREAD THE GOSPELS..they are speaking to God, and God understands all languages...and a lot of missionaries do speak in tongues.Click to expand...Click to expand...
1 Corinthians 14:13 Therefore let him who speaks in another language pray that he may interpret.
14 For if I pray in another language, my spirit prays, but my understanding is unfruitful.
--I only quoted those verses for examples. All throughout this translation [WEB], and most others, the words "another language" is used. It avoids confusion. Remember the KJV is 400 years old. It uses the word "tongue" as in the phrase "mother tongue" or native language. It always refers to language, known language. Thus the language you speak in must be recognizable. Who recognizes the language you speak in? What is it? What do you say when you speak?
When Paul used the gift of languages he used it in other churches, in other lands where: 1) the NT was not complete, 2) Jews were present, 3) another language was needful to speak in. There was a definite purpose for tongues. If you can't fulfill these purposes then tongues is not for you. So, yes it was used in preaching and teaching the Word of God. Why do you think it needed an interpreter? That should be a no-brainer.
THe Bible never said they will cease...UNTIL the coming of our Lord! Man's doctrine came up with the ceasing! YES! Satan imimtates everything Christ does...so what does that prove...that Christ is not real??? That kind of logic can not disprove tongues.Click to expand...
1 Corinthians 13:8 Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
--Tongues shall cease. Paul wrote that in 55 A.D. The question to ask is when tongues would cease. The answer is given in the next few verses.
1 Corinthians 13:9 For we know in part, and we prophesy in part.
--We know in part. The NT was not complete. By 50 A.D. only Matthew and James had been written, and the epistles that they had received. They also had OT revelation. Thus they "knew in part." Therefore prophesy was necessary. It was a necessary gift. Tongues acted as prophesy or teaching when interpreted. It was a vehicle for NT revelation when used properly. That is why it is not needed today. The canon of Scripture is closed. Everything we need to know is within the pages of the inspired Word of God. But they didn't have that. Thus tongues would cease.
When? At the close of the first century when the canon of Scripture was complete.
1 Corinthians 13:10 But when that which is perfect is come, then that which is in part shall be done away.
The word "perfect" is teleios. It is a Greek word meaning "complete" as it also means complete in English. The Word of God would be completed at the end of the first century when John would right the last book, the Book of Revelation ca. 98 A.D. There was nothing else written after that.
Furthermore, "that which is in part" refers to the revelatory gifts mentioned in verse 8: "prophecy, tongues, and revelatory knowledge (not all knowledge--but knowledge used specifically used for the revelation of God's word). When God's revelation to mankind was completed these gifts would cease.
Again, the noun "teleios" or complete, is a neuter adjective, and therefore cannot refer to Jesus Christ or any other masculine noun. It defines the Word of God, a neuter word. In fact the entire context is about revelation from 13:8 all the way to the end of chapter 14.
Tongues shall cease, and they did. -
Again, so much theory without scriptures! Show where they taught in tongues...they did not teach in tongues. When a tongue is interpretated it edifies the body, yes! But it was not teaching the word.Click to expand...
Paul said "I thank God I speak in tongues more than you all."
Why? He had need of them as he went from church to church on his missionary journeys. It was a gift given to the church. If it does not edify the body through teaching or prophesy (also a form of teaching), then how does it edify the body? How were they edified?
Who is fasely accusing? Faith is believing the Word of God before you see it! I read the word....I believed the word...I experienced the word! I believe that puts experience last! This really is getting tiresome...having to defend your twisting my post!Click to expand...
Faith is not believing. Faith is not experiencing.
Here is an example of faith:
Romans 4:20 He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;
21 And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.
--Faith is being fully persuaded that what God has promised God will do.
That is faith--being persuaded in the promises of God, that what God has said in His Word, God will fulfill.
And you are going to base all churches on that one experience! Not all churches that believe in the manifestations of the Spirit is false!Click to expand...
Wow! is this not against forum rules? All this theory and attack and no scriptures to back it up.Click to expand...
Again...accusing me of heresy because I do not believe the way you do? I have shown scriptures! You have debated and twisted my post!Click to expand...
It is not my job to convince you, that is the Holy Spirits! I just share what He has shown me :tongue3: Unbelief will keep us ALL blinded to truth! DHK, you want proof before you believe! THat is the difference with us! I believed what I saw in the Word before I believed or had proof!Click to expand...
Oh, but I am...I am on many forums! It goes all around the world! Not all are called to do the same ministry!Click to expand...
I would appreciate it if you are going to reply to my threads that you would keep the personal attacks out and stay with defending SCRIPTURES!Click to expand...
Luke 14:33 So likewise, whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not all that he hath, he cannot be my disciple.
--Are you not a Christian; a disciple or follower of Christ?
Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
--Do you understand the meaning of this verse? Does it have any application in your personal life?
Mark 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.
--This was written to all Christians. What part do you play in its fulfillment?
Luke 9:23 And he said to them all, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow me.
--You don't have any interest in following Jesus? Do you know the implications of this verse--what it means to take up your cross daily?
What does it really mean to be a Christian? -
DKH......We just do not see eye to eye on those scriptures. And like you...I have explained my position over and over. So we can stop!
We both feel we have scripture for our belief...so I am not repeating myself anymore with you on this thread. If you want to know my stand go back and read prior post!:BangHead: -
awaken said: ↑But in showing that through tongues...the ones speaking in tongues were speaking to God! THe unbelievers that heard this with interpretations this was the sign. Where we diagree is that you do not admit they were magnifying God, praising God in tongues! That was TOO God, not to man.Click to expand...
I did not disagree with you about what they were doing; scripture is quite clear that they were speaking of the wonderful works of God. Where you and I disagree is why they were heard to be speaking in different languages.
When the spirit fell upon them during the preaching, but they did not speak in tongues until after they were saved, right? So who were the unbelievers present?Click to expand...
Yes, but what we are discussing on this thread are are they all the same (tongues) and the Gentiles were praising God (speaking to God) just like the Jews did on the day of Pentecost.Click to expand...
I have never been called to speak in the assembly, not all are called to do that!Click to expand...
Now, I have to warn you: does scripture say that tongues are for a sign to unbelievers, not to believers? (Answer: Yes.) To say any different is to deny what scripture says, and to add to it. That's not my personal opinion; either scripture says it, or we make a case to support something despite what scripture says.Click to expand...Click to expand...
I have never said that tongues were not a sign to the unbelievers! Unbelievers hear them speaking in tongues with interpretation and they know it is from God! IF like Paul said that tongues are done WITHOUT interpretation they will think it is a sign of judgement.Click to expand...
Second, examine what you said about unbelievers hearing them speak in tongues with interpretation. What do you mean by "with interpretation"? Do you mean that an unbeliever will hear someone speak in an unknown language, and someone else will interpret it, and the unbeliever will know it is from God? (that's not the way it worked in Acts 2) Or do you mean that someone will speak in an unknown language, and the unbeliever will understand it in his/her own language? (which is what happened in Acts 2) -
John of Japan Well-Known MemberSite Supporterawaken said: ↑You are right! I know very little about most charismatic churches! I just looked up some history of the baptist.Click to expand...
I agree that fruit producing is a process!Click to expand...
THis is where you misunderstand my stand! THe only doctrine that I claim is that I believe that the Holy Spirit still manifest Himself through people! ...and that includes the 9 manifestations in Corinthians 12! It is all done by the power of the Holy Spirit...it was given to the church...and will not leave until the return of Christ!Click to expand...
But this is precisely Charismatic doctrine, unknown until the 20th century. The term "Charisma" is taken from the Greek word for "gift" in 1 Cor., carisma (charisma). That's why it is called the Charismatic Movement. The fact that this doctrine of the gifts is so important to you, even though it is not one of the fundamental doctrines of the Bible but a doctrine taken from teaching to the worst church in the NT, makes you a Charismatic. You might as well admit it and use the term for yourself, you are a Charismatic Baptist.
No, I am not aware of this doctrine! I come across this scripture truth (The manifestation of the Spirit) in my home studies!Click to expand...
There are so many other Charismatic excesses it's hard to list them. Healing meetings (not in the Bible), health and wealth Gospel, latter rain doctrine, Oral Roberts sending out holy water and saying to pour it on your wallet, etc., etc. What you've done by becoming a Charismatic is open a huge can of worms. I hope you can deal with that. -
awaken said: ↑DKH......We just do not see eye to eye on those scriptures. And like you...I have explained my position over and over. So we can stop!
We both feel we have scripture for our belief...so I am not repeating myself anymore with you on this thread. If you want to know my stand go back and read prior post!:BangHead:Click to expand...
[FONT="]--that every born-again believer should be filled with the Spirit in order to effectively witness for Christ, but we repudiate the claims of the modern tongues and healing movement (otherwise known as the charismatic movement).[/FONT]
[FONT="]• Ephesians 5:18; Luke 11-13; Romans 6:4; Ephesians 1:19-21; 3:16; Luke 4:18,19; Acts 4:31; 5:32; 1 Corinthians 12:29,30; 14:39,21,22; Isaiah 29:11,12; 1 Corinthians 3:1-3; 13:8-13[/FONT]
[FONT="]-- in ecclesiastical separation,...we believe in separation from the ecumenical movement, from modernism, from neo-orthodoxy, from ecumenical or cooperative evangelism, from new evangelicalism and other compromise, from the charismatic movement (another form of ecumenism),... and any and all others who tolerate deviation from sound doctrine and practice.[/FONT]
[FONT="]• 2 Corinthians 6:14-18; Romans 16:17,18; 1 Corinthians 16:22; Galatians 1:8,9; 1 Thessalonians 3:6,14; 1 Timothy 5:22b; Titus 3:10; 2 John 7-11; Revelation 2:14-16[/FONT]Click to expand...
[/FONT]
[FONT="]Since you are a Charismatic you probably should be posting in the non-Baptist portion of this board.
[/FONT] -
DHK said: ↑No, we don't see eye to eye. You have accepted another religion as far as I am concerned and have repudiated the historical stand of Baptists. Look through the statements of faith of various Baptist Churches. Some are more detailed than others. Many of them will repudiate the Charismatic movement outwardly. For example, here is one that is from my own file:
[FONT="]The fact is that you haven't been able to answer the Scripture that I have put forth. You haven't been able to give satisfactory answers to questions put forth to you.
[/FONT]
[FONT="]Since you are a Charismatic you probably should be posting in the non-Baptist portion of this board.
[/FONT]Click to expand... -
John of Japan Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
There was actually a thread on the BB on "Can a Baptist Be Charismatic?"
http://www.baptistboard.com/showthread.php?t=15110 -
Don said: ↑In Acts 2, who provided the interpretations? In Acts 10, who provided the interpretations?Click to expand...
I did not disagree with you about what they were doing; scripture is quite clear that they were speaking of the wonderful works of God. Where you and I disagree is why they were heard to be speaking in different languages.Click to expand...
That is correct; and I admit that Acts 10 doesn't specify unbelievers being present. However, Acts 10 specifies that the Jewish believers were astonished by the Gentiles speaking in tongues. So that leads to my question: Why were they speaking in tongues? In this case, to show the Jews that God favored the Gentiles as well.Click to expand...
Correct. Acts 2 is very specific about which languages were heard; are you saying that the same languages were heard in Acts 10?Click to expand...
So you've never spoken in tongues?Click to expand...
1 Cor 14:22 very clearly says tongues are a sign for unbelievers; thus, scripture says the sign is tongues. So how can you disagree on what that sign is?Click to expand...
First, if it's done without interpretation, it's not a "sign of judgment"; Paul says (verse 23) that if it's done without interpretation, unbelievers will think you are insane.Click to expand...
It turns out that "uninterpreted tongues" have been used in Israel's history as a sign to the unbelieving Israelites that God's judgment had come upon them. Paul was quoting a prophecy from Isaiah 28:11-12:
"Very well then, with foreign lips and strange tongues God will speak to this people, to whom he said, "This is the resting place, let the weary rest"; and, "This is the place of repose"-- but they would not listen." (Isaiah 28:11-12)
This prophecy was fulfilled when the Assyrian army swooped down upon Israel speaking a foreign language (an uninterpreted tongue), carrying Israel off into captivity. Paul used an example from Israel's history to show that uninterpreted tongues are sometimes used as a "sign" for unbelievers that judgment has come upon them.
Then Paul pointed out that if an unbeliever enters a church where Christians seem to have lost their minds, the unbeliever would see this as a sign of impending judgment. This is why Paul said that prophecy is much more beneficial during a church service.
Second, examine what you said about unbelievers hearing them speak in tongues with interpretation. What do you mean by "with interpretation"? Do you mean that an unbeliever will hear someone speak in an unknown language, and someone else will interpret it, and the unbeliever will know it is from God? (that's not the way it worked in Acts 2) Or do you mean that someone will speak in an unknown language, and the unbeliever will understand it in his/her own language? (which is what happened in Acts 2)Click to expand...
Sometimes they hear in their own language and sometime it needs to be interpreted. Why would God list interpretation of tongues as a manifestation of the Holy Spirit if it was not needed.
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