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What do you believe is required for Salvation?

Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Thinkingstuff, Oct 19, 2010.

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  1. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known Member
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    So do you really think they believe? Who goes to hell TS?
     
    #41 Earth Wind and Fire, Oct 20, 2010
  2. annsni

    annsni Well-Known Member
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    The downside is that the Bible does not say that baptism saves. "What shall I do to be saved?" "Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved." That's good enough for us.
     
    #42 annsni, Oct 20, 2010
  3. Thinkingstuff

    Thinkingstuff Active Member

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    Not really since what gospel Paul was talking about is often up to debate. There are a plethera of ideas of what he meant. Look, marcion a meer 300 years after christ built his whole faith just on the writings of Paul. Certainly he would disagree with you what the gospel Paul preached was. Unless you think he was an early baptist.

    Really, You and I could go round and round just on this topic. You say that Abraham was justified by faith alone right? You would quote Romans 4
    My question to you is which time? Well, Paul says in the same passage
    Paul clearly indicates here that Abraham believed God by which he was justified when he believed God that God would make of him a nation in Gen 15 where Paul is quoting from. But then we see in Hebrews by "faith"
    And we see in James 2
    Which time was abraham Justified. The NT seems to indicate he was justified 3 different times in his life. See so which time is Abraham justified if its a one time thing?

    Oh certainly there is. And none of these verse indicate How narrow nor how wide the Narrow road is. And Like I said to Matt based on your statements the Narrow road may be wider than you think.

    Nice try. Your falling into the trap set for you.
     
    #43 Thinkingstuff, Oct 20, 2010
  4. Thinkingstuff

    Thinkingstuff Active Member

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    That's implicit in my question.
     
    #44 Thinkingstuff, Oct 20, 2010
  5. Dr. Walter

    Dr. Walter New Member

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    Your approach to scripture is your downfall. You cannot consistently stick with the context of a single text. Instead, you take different writers talking about different things and pit them against each other and thus confuse the subject. This kind of interpretative method can only result in a plethora of confusion.

    Paul is talking about one thing and James is talking about another thing and it is self-evident IF you interpret each in their own context. However, you won't allow each to be interpreted by their own context but insist on pitting one against the other.

    I will take your challenge IF you will allow the individual writer to interpret himself according to his own context!!! If you will allow Paul to interpret himself according to his own context your charge of a plethora of ideas will simply vanish. If you will allow James to interpret himself according to his own context your charge of confusion will simply vanish.

    Since it is Paul that charged any and all who preach another gospel as "accursed" than what he preached, then please allow Paul to contextually define what he preached!
     
    #45 Dr. Walter, Oct 20, 2010
  6. Dr. Walter

    Dr. Walter New Member

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    #46 Dr. Walter, Oct 20, 2010
  7. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    TS:
    Which verse speaks the truth, and how do you know?
    Or are they both truthful?

    Isaiah 45:5 I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me:

    Psalms 14:1 There is no God.

    The Bible doesn't contradict itself does it?

    But this is your method of hermeneutics.
     
    #47 DHK, Oct 20, 2010
  8. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known Member
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    His Sovereignty the word your looking for Matt?

    BTW, get yourself a buzz cut then take it all off.....Very Liberating!
     
    #48 Earth Wind and Fire, Oct 20, 2010
  9. billwald

    billwald New Member

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    >Who goes to hell

    Anyone who prefers it to Heaven. "The lock on the door to hell is on the inside."
     
    #49 billwald, Oct 20, 2010
  10. Thinkingstuff

    Thinkingstuff Active Member

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    Obviously two entirely different things. All Scripture I quoted are in the context of the book in which it was writen. You've took half of a sentence from one line in Psalms. Entirely two different things.
     
    #50 Thinkingstuff, Oct 20, 2010
  11. Thinkingstuff

    Thinkingstuff Active Member

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    Nope. Each writer is speaking about faith, and Justification. Each mentions Abraham at different times in his life using the "faith, justification" motif to get across their point. The problem is when in comparison of other writers speaking about the same thing. Each writer I've mention is taken in the context of their own book.
     
    #51 Thinkingstuff, Oct 20, 2010
  12. Thinkingstuff

    Thinkingstuff Active Member

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    #52 Thinkingstuff, Oct 20, 2010
  13. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known Member
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    Here is a summary provided by the Fellowship Network that sums it up for me

    Salvation

    Although God could have left all human beings in their sin and guilt, in love, he freely and graciously chose to deliver us from our ruined condition. He provided his eternal Son to become human in order to save us. Christ’s saving work focused on his death, in which he bore the penalty which is justly ours, thus satisfying the demands of God’s moral law and turning away the wrath of God which is poured out on unrepentant sinners. God signified his approval of Christ’s work by raising him from the dead and exalting him as Lord in heaven. On the basis of this work of Christ on our behalf, God accepts as perfectly righteous all those who trust in Christ who died and rose again. We come to believe in Christ because God does a special work of grace to overcome our sinful disposition and draw us to himself. Then God continues this work of grace, so that all who have been drawn to faith in Christ will be preserved in faith and salvation and will enter into the perfect conditions of eternal life in the age to come. (John 6:35-40; Romans 3:19-26; 8:28-30; 1 Peter 1:18-23)
     
    #53 Earth Wind and Fire, Oct 20, 2010
  14. Thinkingstuff

    Thinkingstuff Active Member

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    Just to throw in some more views. Follow the logic of the mode of salvation that you've espoused here. Would not somebody have a valid point saying:
    Just to get some thinking going.
     
    #54 Thinkingstuff, Oct 20, 2010
  15. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known Member
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    Shall the clay tell the potter how to mold the pottery? TS, who is sovereign here....the Creator of the Universe or you?
     
    #55 Earth Wind and Fire, Oct 20, 2010
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 20, 2010
  16. Thinkingstuff

    Thinkingstuff Active Member

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    The question possed by the quote was not whether God was soveriegn but if God were good or even sane in his plan for salvation.

    Interesting subject for another thread. Is there a moral responsibility of the creator for his creation?
     
    #56 Thinkingstuff, Oct 20, 2010
  17. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    It is not entirely two different things. This is exactly what you do and what Dr. Walters has pointed out to you. But typically you ignore him.

    My first statement about God was true, correct?

    Here is the truth about justification:
    Romans 4:3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
    Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.

    There is no other way to be justified, but by faith.
    But my second statement was pulled out of context and was false, correct?
    You do the same thing.

    James 2:21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
    James 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
    --You ignore the context of the chapter; you ignore the context of the book. You take these verses out of their context. You might as well be agreeing with "there is no God," for the Bible does says that, as you well know. You can make the Bible say anything you want it to. And that is what you do.
     
    #57 DHK, Oct 20, 2010
  18. Thinkingstuff

    Thinkingstuff Active Member

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    Its not exactly what I do. I've quoted each text in the context of the book in which they were writen. Each author uses Abraham in the discussion of Faith, Justification, Rightiousness, and salvation. Each Author point to a different time in the Patriarchs life in which to make the explanation. The question is rather a simple one. Which time or is it all three times and if all three times then how does that affect justification. In otherwords in the context of each book I've quoted the author appropriately. you have not.

    What you did was take half a sentence from one verse in Psalms (out of context of the work applied) to make it disagree with another section. If you can't see the difference from what you have done and what I did then you're going to have some serious issues.
     
    #58 Thinkingstuff, Oct 20, 2010
  19. DHK

    DHK <b>Moderator</b>

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    If you are confused about time, that is your problem. Abraham believed God. He believed God when God called him out of Ur of Chaldees. He continued to believe in each other place where God led him. That is the nature of the Christian life. When he first believed it was imputed unto him for righteousness sake. There is nothing difficult about that concept.
    Whether it is one verse or one chapter, taking it out of context is the same. You take James 1:21,24 out of context--both of the context of the chapter and of the book. You have done the same thing that I did. You cannot see the forest for the trees. You are blind to what you are doing. If you don't know the context how can you rightly divide the word of truth?
     
    #59 DHK, Oct 20, 2010
  20. Thinkingstuff

    Thinkingstuff Active Member

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    Its rather a simple consept DHK. 3 Different Authors (or at least 2 because we don't know the Authorship of Hebrews) Discuss Faith in relationship to Justification, Righteousness, and salvation. Each Author applies a differing date to which Justification/Righteousness is applied to Abraham. One say it was when He believed God regarding making a nation, another claims it is when he chose to leave to a "land that I will show you". and thirdly one states its when he trusted God to sacrifice his son. If Justification is a one time event then why are there three differing dates affecting it?

    Note I didn't refer to that verse I refered to James 2:21-24
    And in this verse it adds another aspect to faith - works which you reject. However, the author obviously makes the same claim that Abraham was justified or righteous when his faith resonded in works by sacrificing Isaac. So you see I didn't take it out of context. Do you want me to quote the whole chapter you will find James discourse is that faith is not complete without works. As in this passage earlier on.
     
    #60 Thinkingstuff, Oct 20, 2010
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