That clocked was cleaned rather well.
What happens to those who never hear abut Christ?
Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Jordan Kurecki, Oct 11, 2014.
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Romans chapter one: All Gentiles are condemned under sin.
Romans chapter two: All Jews are condemned under sin.
Romans chapter three: All the world (Jews and Gentiles) are all condemned under sin.
Romans chapter four: Salvation is by faith; not by the works of the law.
Concluding chapter four is the first verse of chapter five verse one:
Therefore, being justified by faith we have peace with God.
It is the theme of Romans, Acts, and John:
[FONT="]John 20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.[/FONT]
--There is the summary verse of John. Eternal life comes by believing in Christ. That is entire reason why John wrote the book, he says: "These are written, that ye might..." He is not talking about the elect. There is no mention of any elect.
--John was written to "the world."
Your interpretation of "believe" does not affect the broader meaning of "the world" no matter which way you look at. He died for all, everyone. Your interpretation simply is an attack on eternal security and opens the door to one losing their salvation. It does not say "everyone believing," but rather "keep on believing."
Jesus said; "I will draw all men to myself."
In light of the question, "What more could He have done," and in light of the above answer that you gave to that question, how is that going to help those in other nations who have never heard, hear the gospel so that they can be saved?
What happens to those who never hear Christ? How are they going to hear?
By sending his Son and paying the ultimate cost in shedding his precious blood for ALL mankind there is nothing more that Christ could have done.
That is what I said, and what you just responded to. That is what the Bible teaches. But you teach that Christ did not pay the ultimate cost in shedding his precious blood for All mankind. You teach that he shed a few drops for a few people. What a travesty!
[FONT="]1 John 2:2
And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.[/FONT]
Second, you are answering my question: "What more could God have done?"
Third, the very fact that you are answering implies that he didn't do enough for mankind according to you. It was an insufficient sacrifice.
Fourth, God doesn't "grant" repentance and faith to the unsaved. They must believe and repent on their own. A misunderstanding of certain scriptures on your part is very evident. Never in the Scriptures does God give faith to the unregenrate. Faith, in the spiritual realm, is portrayed only two ways: as a spiritual gift or a fruit of the Spirit. God does not give that kind of faith to the unsaved/unregenerate. The only other faith known to mankind is innate faith, the faith of a child; trust, confidence.
1John 2:1,2 is in the Bible. I believe it.
I also believe Mat.28:19,20. That is my view. The Lord never told his disciples: "Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all the elect."
Nonsense!
They are all inclusive. He meant what he said.
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I am certain you are familiar with the verse:
[FONT="]1 Timothy 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.[/FONT]
--His "will" is that all men would be saved. It is written clearly here.
Have you ever prayed "The Lord's Prayer," 'Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven.' Many do. Yet I am certain God's will is not done the same here as it is in heaven simply because we are frail human creatures with sin natures. Intentions may be good, but we are not perfectly holy.
Or,
"My will" as a father, may be quite lofty for my children. It may not turn out the way I want it to. My will is not always done. The reason--man has a free will and I can't always impose my will on my children.
God does not impose his will on mankind. We are not his robots. -
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Is that clear enough for you? Calvin admired Augustine and fully acknowledged the latter's material. Calvin willingly cited Augustine and was not stealing from him in any manner. When one credits a source you can't say that person is plagiarizing.
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We are either dead in our iniquity, or we are dead in Adam's. Which is it? -
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Iconoclast Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/...OlIUGjTNjOT1bM6TT8d1FrdHl9CbBmCP9FagvSWwaltBt
:laugh::laugh:
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Iconoclast Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
DHK
that is why paul says...I endure all things for the elects sake.
Everyone who savingly believes...is Elect. You seem to think Elect is a dirty word rather than a blessing.... There is no mention of born from above believers here in Chapter 20 either...does that mean these believers were not born from above????:confused:
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It does not say "everyone believing," but rather "keep on believing."[/QUOTE]
I quoted Youngs literal translation...hardly eisegesis:laugh:
it actually says both....whosoever is not in the text....everyone believing, and continuing to believe is in the text.....I could offer you sermons on it...but you will not listen anyway:laugh:
John 3 Young's Literal Translation (YLT)
3 And there was a man of the Pharisees, Nicodemus his name, a ruler of the Jews,
2 this one came unto him by night, and said to him, `Rabbi, we have known that from God thou hast come -- a teacher, for no one these signs is able to do that thou dost, if God may not be with him.'
3 Jesus answered and said to him, `Verily, verily, I say to thee, If any one may not be born from above, he is not able to see the reign of God;'
4 Nicodemus saith unto him, `How is a man able to be born, being old? is he able into the womb of his mother a second time to enter, and to be born?'
5 Jesus answered, `Verily, verily, I say to thee, If any one may not be born of water, and the Spirit, he is not able to enter into the reign of God;
6 that which hath been born of the flesh is flesh, and that which hath been born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 `Thou mayest not wonder that I said to thee, It behoveth you to be born from above;
8 the Spirit where he willeth doth blow, and his voice thou dost hear, but thou hast not known whence he cometh, and whither he goeth; thus is every one who hath been born of the Spirit.'
9 Nicodemus answered and said to him, `How are these things able to happen?'
10 Jesus answered and said to him, `Thou art the teacher of Israel -- and these things thou dost not know!
11 `Verily, verily, I say to thee -- What we have known we speak, and what we have seen we testify, and our testimony ye do not receive;
12 if the earthly things I said to you, and ye do not believe, how, if I shall say to you the heavenly things, will ye believe?
13 and no one hath gone up to the heaven, except he who out of the heaven came down -- the Son of Man who is in the heaven.
14 `And as Moses did lift up the serpent in the wilderness, so it behoveth the Son of Man to be lifted up,
15 that every one who is believing in him may not perish, but may have life age-during,
16 for God did so love the world, that His Son -- the only begotten -- He gave,
that every one who is believing in him may not perish,
but may have life age-during.
17 For God did not send His Son to the world that he may judge the world, but that the world may be saved through him;
18 he who is believing in him is not judged, but he who is not believing hath been judged already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19 `And this is the judgment, that the light hath come to the world, and men did love the darkness rather than the light, for their works were evil;
No doubt..........except for all the errors that you slip in!!!!
The rest of this post contained very serious error...but my lunch break has ended...I will handle the more toxic portion in about 400 miles...lol -
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You have ignored the entire context of the first four chapters of which Rom.5:1 is the conclusion. The only reason the "we" is the elect is because the "we" being spoken to, the believers at the church of Rome are those ones who put their faith and trust in Christ Jesus.
But you have to turn everything into a Calvinist thread. You wouldn't know they were elect unless they had first put their faith in Christ. You look at things backwards. The reason you know they are elect is because they have chosen Christ. And therefore the importance of the Great Commission remains.
Is it: "I'm going to pray to God to lead me to the elect; I hope I don't sin and and tell the gospel to the non-elect on the way." :rolleyes:
Truthfully, it would be better if you hadn't. They will be responsible for the light that they will be given. But we don't and will not be given that knowledge. And the onus of telling all is on us.
In your faith you constantly have to apologize to God.
Remember Charles Templeton (1915-2070).
He worked with Billy Graham when he first started out. He was a great evangelist, and for a while even more popular than Billy. Many were saved through his preaching. He preached faithfully the Word of God. He was also the pastor of the Avenue Road Baptist Church in Toronto.
In Evansville, Indiana, an average of 150 a night were coming to the Lord. Out of a population of 128,000, 91,000 had attended his campaign and church attendance had gone up by 17%.
Then something happened in his life.
He apostatized. He couldn't come to grips with the horrors of the holocaust, reconcile the "science" of evolution and the Bible. He began to deny everything he preached and died an atheist.
If you had lived at the same time you would have rejoiced. You would have said in your heart: There is one of God's elect. His name is written in the Lamb's book of life. He is doing the work of the elect. He has eternal life. No man can take it from him.
Now you must apologize to God.
Lord I made a mistake. He wasn't one of your elect after all. I should have let you make that decision, and not presume upon your wisdom.
What gives you the right to declare who is elect and who isn't? That is Calvinism's fallacy.
I don't know your heart and you don't know mine. God does. I trust we both have made "professions" of faith in Christ, and there is fruit in our lives. Are we "of the elect"? The Lord knows them that are His. I am not going to state on this board those things that God only knows. That is the arrogance of the Calvinist.
The everyone who is believing is the same as anyone who is believing or all who believe.
(LITV) For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that everyone believing into Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
(MKJV) For God so loved the world that He gave His only-begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
--Clearly, it is not "that if the elect should believe" as you want it to say.
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webdog said: ↑Yes your demeanor has done a complete 180. Your last comment to DHK was uncalled for and nasty. You can't tell me anything as I've also been on both sides. Your "side" has obviously clouded your judgement.Click to expand...
I have never thought more clearly in my life...nothing's clouded.
BTW, which one of us was banned for 20-30 days and the other hasn't even received one infraction? Hmmmmmm? -
Iconoclast Well-Known MemberSite SupporterDHK said: ↑Some truths are self-evident. The entire book of Romans is written to the "elect." So you are on safe ground whenever you say that, aren't you?Click to expand...
You have ignored the entire context of the first four chapters of which Rom.5:1 is the conclusion.Click to expand...
The only reason the "we" is the elect is because the "we" being spoken to, the believers at the church of Rome are those ones who put their faith and trust in Christ Jesus.Click to expand...
But you have to turn everything into a Calvinist thread.Click to expand...
You wouldn't know they were elect unless they had first put their faith in Christ.Click to expand...
You look at things backwards.Click to expand...
you say that because your ideas and theology are man centered, ours is Christ centered....look at your posts...you did thgis, you did that, you had faith, you you you... We say God has done this, God has granted repentance unto life
..read your posts and see for yourself.
The reason you know they are elect is because they have chosen Christ.[/Click to expand...
They do not elect themselves..Christ chooses them..see how it is you who are always backwards
And therefore the importance of the Great Commission remains.Click to expand...
Election is God's business not ours.Click to expand...
That the bible teaches Election is a revealed truth given unto US.
Why presume to know the mind of God, when you don't?Click to expand...
29 The secret things belong unto the Lord our God: but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of this law
it is not presumption to obey God.
What do you say when the subject of evangelism comes up, or does it?
Is it: "I'm going to pray to God to lead me to the elect; I hope I don't sin and and tell the gospel to the non-elect on the way."Click to expand...
Truthfully, it would be better if you hadn't. They will be responsible for the light that they will be given. But we don't and will not be given that knowledge. And the onus of telling all is on us.Click to expand...
15 For we are unto God a sweet savour of Christ, in them that are saved, and in them that perish:
16 To the one we are the savour of death unto death; and to the other the savour of life unto life. And who is sufficient for these things?
17 For we are not as many, which corrupt the word of God: but as of sincerity, but as of God, in the sight of God speak we in Christ.
In your faith you constantly have to apologize to God.
Remember Charles Templeton (1915-2070).
He worked with Billy Graham when he first started out. He was a great evangelist, and for a while even more popular than Billy. Many were saved through his preaching. He preached faithfully the Word of God. He was also the pastor of the Avenue Road Baptist Church in Toronto.
In Evansville, Indiana, an average of 150 a night were coming to the Lord. Out of a population of 128,000, 91,000 had attended his campaign and church attendance had gone up by 17%.
Then something happened in his life.
He apostatized. He couldn't come to grips with the horrors of the holocaust, reconcile the "science" of evolution and the Bible. He began to deny everything he preached and died an atheist.
If you had lived at the same time you would have rejoiced. You would have said in your heart: There is one of God's elect. His name is written in the Lamb's book of life. He is doing the work of the elect. He has eternal life. No man can take it from him.
Now you must apologize to God.
Lord I made a mistake. He wasn't one of your elect after all. I should have let you make that decision, and not presume upon your wisdom.
What gives you the right to declare who is elect and who isn't? That is Calvinism's fallacy.Click to expand...
I don't know your heart and you don't know mine. God does. I trust we both have made "professions" of faith in Christ, and there is fruit in our lives. Are we "of the elect"? The Lord knows them that are His. I am not going to state on this board those things that God only knows. That is the arrogance of the Calvinist.Click to expand...
24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life
that is who believers are....ELECT....no condemnation..
Every salvation text has the implication of "whosoever," and after the "whosoever" has come to Christ, from God's point of view the same text has the implication of "the elect." If you take away the "whosoever" you have taken away evangelism and the Great Commission.Click to expand...
Quoting the entire chapter of John 3 won't change the meaning of verse 16.Click to expand...
He gave His Son for the whole world. The only one putting limitations on this is you.Click to expand...
it does not say that...
Now you are speaking like the J.W.'s, SDA's, and any other cult who wishes to use verses to deny eternal life. They change such scripture to limit "eternal" to an "age." Pitiful!Click to expand...
The everyone who is believing is the same as anyone who is believing or all who believe.
(LITV) For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that everyone believing into Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
(MKJV) For God so loved the world that He gave His only-begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
--Clearly, it is not "that if the elect should believe" as you want it to say.Click to expand...
17 For God did not send His Son to the world that he may judge the world, but that the world may be saved through him;
--His will is stated: All the world may be saved. That provision is made.
That won't happen because man is wicked. All the world will be judged in one way or another. Do you deny that? Will you also escape judgment?Click to expand...
The entire world will be judged. Light came into the entire world! Yes or no? The entire world has been the subject here all along. To read into this passage "the world of the elect" is horrendous eisigesis and a disservice to the Word of God. I hope others are not swayed by the errors of your theology.Click to expand...Click to expand... -
Iconoclast Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
DHK
Anyone familiar with covenants know that they were given for Israel and those that still are not fulfilled will be fulfilled through Israel.Click to expand...
The one covenant for believers is made with Christ at the time of salvation when we establish a personal relationship with him.Click to expand... -
Iconoclast Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
DHK
Your interpretation simply is an attack on eternal security and opens the door to one losing their salvation. It does not say "everyone believing," but rather "keep on believing."
Quote:
That whosoever believeth may in him have eternal life (hina pas ho pisteuôn en autôi echêi zôên aiônion). Final use of hina with present active subjunctive of echô, that he may keep on having eternal life (a frequent phrase in John, always in John aiônios occurs with zôê, 16 times in the Gospel, 6 in 1John, ageless or endless life, beginning now and lasting forever). It is more than endless, for it is sharing in the life of God in Christ (Joh 5:26; 17:3; 1Jo 5:12). So here en autôi (in him) is taken with echêi rather than with pisteuôn. --A.T. RobertsonClick to expand... -
Kings in OT times, when they made a decree, could not change/reverse it. See Darius with Daniel and Ashuarus(sp?) with Esther. God decreed to save a multitude, called His sheep, His elect, His chosen, etc. Once decreed, it could never be altered/changed, seeing He is immutable. We are placed in this covenant by Him, and do not add ourselves...
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Iconoclast Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
DHK
Quote:
You speak of a limited idea , a potential salvation...rather than the actual real salvation of the elect.
Really? You call this a limited idea?
By sending his Son and paying the ultimate cost in shedding his precious bloodClick to expand...
for ALL mankindClick to expand...
11 For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,12 Saying, I will declare thy name unto my brethren, in the midst of the church will I sing praise unto thee.
13 And again, I will put my trust in him. And again, Behold I and the children which God hath given me.
14 Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might destroy him that had the power of death, that is, the devil;
15 And deliver them who through fear of death were all their lifetime subject to bondage.
16 For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.
17 Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, that he might be a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make reconciliation for the sins of the people.
Your continual denial of these truths is puzzling.....
there is nothing more that Christ could have done.Click to expand...
That is what I said, and what you just responded to. That is what the Bible teaches.Click to expand...
But you teach that Christ did not pay the ultimate cost in shedding his precious blood for All mankind.Click to expand...
You teach that he shed a few drops for a few people. What a travesty!Click to expand...
If I did not post it and you say I did....you are lying and bearing false witness again a 9th commandment violation....now that is as you say a travesty.....
I have many times posted Jesus blood was shed for a multitude.....
Does this look like a few to you DHK-
That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies;
I was told that one barrel of sand contains millions of grains of sand...that is just one barrel full...how about the number of the stars...can you count them DHK.
Stop saying things that I have never said. You speak for your point of view, I will speak for mine...Click to expand... -
Iconoclast Well-Known MemberSite Supporterconvicted1 said: ↑Kings in OT times, when they made a decree, could not change/reverse it. See Darius with Daniel and Ashuarus(sp?) with Esther. God decreed to save a multitude, called His sheep, His elect, His chosen, etc. Once decreed, it could never be altered/changed, seeing He is immutable. We are placed in this covenant by Him, and do not add ourselves...Click to expand...
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Iconoclast said: ↑You are most certainly correct sir:thumbsup::wavey::thumbs:Click to expand...
Here is the OP:
Another revelation of God is the conscience:
Rom 2:14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
Rom 2:15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another
Here it talks about the Law, mainly referring to the Ten Commandments, basically everyone knows deep down inside, that lying, murder, stealing, etc are wrong, and this is written on man's heart in his conscience.
The point i am making is if a person refuses to accept the revelation of Creation, and the Revelation of Conscience, then God is not obligated to give the revelation of Christ, this is completely just and fair.If a person is not willing to learn simply addition and subtraction then it is not unjust for the teacher to be unwilling to teach him calculus.
God sends missionaries when he knows there are people who will be receptive.he is all knowing and knows who will accept his gift of eternal life.
People do not deserve to go to heaven because of sin, it is completely just for God to send anyone to hell,without them ever hearing the gospel, because all have sinned and chosen to do wrong in life. this includes people in foreign lands, When God allows sinners to have a chance to hear the gospel, that is called grace, because they do not deserve the chance, But I do believe that if there is anyone who would be willing to get saved, God will in fact allow them to hear the message somehow, the bible says that God is "not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.", the bible also says that he wills all men to come the knowledge of the truth and wills all men to be saved. Jesus also said that if he be lifted up (referring to the cross) that he will draw all men to himself; this shows that to some degree, God draws all men to Christ, to the degree that a person is willing to let God draw him, he will draw them.
Consider this passage from the bible:
Act 8:26 And the angel of the Lord spake unto Philip, saying, Arise, and go toward the south unto the way that goeth down from Jerusalem unto Gaza, which is desert.
Act 8:27 And he arose and went: and, behold, a man of Ethiopia, an eunuch of great authority under Candace queen of the Ethiopians, who had the charge of all her treasure, and had come to Jerusalem for to worship,
Act 8:28 Was returning, and sitting in his chariot read Esaias the prophet.
Act 8:29 Then the Spirit said unto Philip, Go near, and join thyself to this chariot.
Act 8:30 And Philip ran thither to him, and heard him read the prophet Esaias, and said, Understandest thou what thou readest?
Act 8:31 And he said, How can I, except some man should guide me? And he desired Philip that he would come up and sit with him.
Act 8:32 The place of the scripture which he read was this, He was led as a sheep to the slaughter; and like a lamb dumb before his shearer, so opened he not his mouth:
Act 8:33 In his humiliation his judgment was taken away: and who shall declare his generation? for his life is taken from the earth.
Act 8:34 And the eunuch answered Philip, and said, I pray thee, of whom speaketh the prophet this? of himself, or of some other man?
Act 8:35 Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus.
Act 8:36 And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?
Act 8:37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.
Act 8:38 And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.
Act 8:39 And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing.
Notice here is Eunuch reading the old testament scripture who is clearly searching for the truth, so God sends him somebody to explain to him about Jesus.
Consider another example:
Act 16:9 And a vision appeared to Paul in the night; There stood a man of Macedonia, and prayed him, saying, Come over into Macedonia, and help us.
Act 16:10 And after he had seen the vision, immediately we endeavoured to go into Macedonia, assuredly gathering that the Lord had called us for to preach the gospel unto them.
Hope this helps you to understand.Click to expand...
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