What Is a Jew or an Israelite?

[Aaron]

The future of the Jews is not here now. Right now is the present and tomorrow is the future.

You know what I'm talking about. The Church is the house of David rebuilt.

Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name. And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written, After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up: That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things. - Acts 15:14-17

 

[Aaron]

A Jew is a member of a group of people who can trace their physical lineage to the Isralires (NOT to Abraham but to the Isralietes who occupied Judea).

Can one of this group be considered a Jew if he isn't circumcised?

 

[JonC]

Can one of this group be considered a Jew if he isn't circumcised?

Yes. A Christian who is an ethnic Jew is still ethnically Jewish. Also, many Jews hold Judaism as a tradition (they are secular Jews).

Israel is a nation set aside for Jewish (ethnic) governance. It is not a theocracy (Arabs also serve in the government).

 

[Armchair Apologist]

You know what I'm talking about. The Church is the house of David rebuilt.

Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name. And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written, After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up: That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things. - Acts 15:14-17

I reject replacement theology. The Church (gentiles) does not replace Israel; we are graffed in and included with them. Granted, those who are "Jews Inwardly" are also numbered with those in the Church and in Christ, there is no difference between the Jew and Greek (Rom 10:12) and I take no issue with Jewish believers maintaining their Jewish identity but they also must identify themselves with the Church. I would readily say that the "Israel" we have today is not Israel based upon my understanding of Rom 9:6.

I also reject the "Different people-different destinies" that the rigid classic dispensationalists tout. There is but ONE PEOPLE - God's Elect chosen in him before the foundation of the world (Eph 1:4) and to this one people, God shall declare "They shall be my people and I shall be their God" (Rev 21:3).

Now, where we likely disagree is that it seems that you are a partial (orthodox) preterist and I am a historic premillennialist who sees a future role for a revived Israel whom God has raised up from the valley of dry bones (Ez 37) gathered them back to their land from every nation in which they have been scattered and will replace their heart of stone with a heart of flesh (Ez 36:24). I am well aware that some see all of this being fulfilled with their return from exile with Cyrus's decree but the verbiage says out of all countries which to me sounds more like the way they were scattered after 70 AD but we can certainly dispute this point.

Do you believe in Jesus literal, physical return? That he will return in the same manner as he left (Acts 1:11) with his feet touching down on Mount Olivet (Zec 14:1-4; Rev 19:11-21)? Please note that at his return, Israel will be at the focal point and all nations of the earth will be gathered for war against them! Where did this nation come from and who are they? I do not care what your millennial or eschatological position may be, you need to deal with this!

 

[Aaron]

I reject replacement theology.

"Replacement" theology is a pejorative. The Church is Israel coming of age.

The Church (gentiles) does not replace Israel; we are graffed in and included with them.

And the unbelieving natural branches are cut off, and are not included with us.

Granted, those who are "Jews Inwardly" are also numbered with those in the Church and in Christ, there is no difference between the Jew and Greek (Rom 10:12) and I take no issue with Jewish believers maintaining their Jewish identity but they also must identify themselves with the Church. I would readily say that the "Israel" we have today is not Israel based upon my understanding of Rom 9:6.

You seem to make a distinction between Christians and those who are "Jews Inwardly." Are you saying the believing Greek was not a Jew inwardly? That his heart wasn't circumcised? What does it mean then to be grafted into the Olive Tree?

You need to describe what you mean by "Jewish identity." Is it the keeping of the law? The observance of days and feasts? (which is a keeping of the law) How does one maintain a "Jewish identity" outside the law or their rabbinical traditions?

The Israel™ today is not the Israel of the Bible, nor is it the Israel of Judaism. It is identity theft to call themselves that. That's why I use the little tradmark sign when of the Zionist state.

I also reject the "Different people-different destinies" that the rigid classic dispensationalists tout. There is but ONE PEOPLE - God's Elect chosen in him before the foundation of the world (Eph 1:4) and to this one people, God shall declare "They shall be my people and I shall be their God" (Rev 21:3).

Now, where we likely disagree is that it seems that you are a partial (orthodox) preterist and I am a historic premillennialist who sees a future role for a revived Israel whom God has raised up from the valley of dry bones (Ez 37) gathered them back to their land from every nation in which they have been scattered and will replace their heart of stone with a heart of flesh (Ez 36:24). I am well aware that some see all of this being fulfilled with their return from exile with Cyrus's decree but the verbiage says out of all countries which to me sounds more like the way they were scattered after 70 AD but we can certainly dispute this point.

Judaism was destroyed in 70 AD, not scattered. God wasn't done with the Jews in Diaspora, but He is now. The true Temple has been built. God tore down His old house, and has moved in to His new one. Messiah has come. The true High Priest has offered the true Sacrifice. He's not coming again for the Jews. They missed it.

The Gospel came to the Jews first. Jews from all over the known world were in Jerusalem, and heard the Gospel in their native tongues. 3000 of them believed and took the news back home with them. God has regathered His people. He made a New Covenant with them, and He wrote His law on the hearts. And Christ has received the nations as His inheritance.

Do you believe in Jesus literal, physical return? That he will return in the same manner as he left (Acts 1:11)

Yes, and we will meet Him in the air.

with his feet touching down on Mount Olivet (Zec 14:1-4; Rev 19:11-21)?

No, you're confusing covenants.

Please note that at his return, Israel will be at the focal point and all nations of the earth will be gathered for war against them!

If you're proceding from the Revelation, it's said the nations will be gathered for war against the saints. Not the Jews.

Where did this nation come from and who are they? I do not care what your millennial or eschatological position may be, you need to deal with this!

What nation? The Holy Nation? Christ birthed that nation on the Cross.

 

[Aaron]

Yes. A Christian who is an ethnic Jew is still ethnically Jewish.

LOL, I'll promise you no Jew receives an uncircumcised man as a Jew, and no Christian is received either.

 

[JonC]

LOL, I'll promise you no Jew receives an uncircumcised man as a Jew, and no Christian is received either.

Receives? I think we are talking about two different things. I was not talking about Judiasm but about ethnic Jews.

Sorry. I thought I indicated "ethnic" in my post.

Take Israel, for example. In Israel there are Jews who are circumcised and uncircumcised. There are Jews who are Christians, who practice Judiasm, and who are secular. They are all Jewish (ethnically... they all are biological descendants from one or more of the twelve tribes of Israel). Most Jews are circumcised. Most are secular Jews (tradition rather than strict adherence).

A Jewish (ethnic) Christian (faith) in Israel is considered Jewish (ethnic) and if of age has to serve in the military. They are considered Jewish (ethnic) by law.

An uncircumcised Jew in Israel (ethnic and religious) is considered Jewish by law.


Jews do not walk down the streets of Israel shouting "drop your drawers!".

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Could anything be less relevant to anything than whether Ivanka’s “rejection of so great a salvation” is accepted or rejected by an apostate sect that denies the Son of God, the only way to the Father?

Agreed

 

[Aaron]

Take Israel, for example. In Israel there are Jews who are circumcised and uncircumcised. There are Jews who are Christians, who practice Judiasm, and who are secular. They are all Jewish (ethnically... they all are biological descendants from one or more of the twelve tribes of Israel). Most Jews are circumcised. Most are secular Jews (tradition rather than strict adherence).

Israel™ is a bad example, and the real politics there are nothing like the notions most evangelicals have of them. And your notion that they are all biological descendants is just that, a notion, not the reality.

 

[JonC]

The reality is the ethnic Jewish population are descendents of the 12 tribes of Israel. This has been proven more than once through DNA (although I am sure many were not tested).

For example - often we hear racist propaganda about the Ashkenazi Jews (European Jews), that they are not descended from historical Jews. This is like the "Black people bear the mark of Cain" propaganda decades ago.

Ashkenazi Jews are mixed in terms of ethnicity. Their ancestors fled to Europe and married Europeans. But their DNA proves their ancestry (Levantine and Southern European ancestry) to Judea (to the land...obviously DNA cannot prove their religion).

But we are talking about physical characteristics. So I do not get the "evangelical" commenent.

 

[kyredneck]

I reject replacement theology. The Church (gentiles) does not replace Israel; we are graffed in and included with them.

...if this is not being replaced then I don't know the meaning of the word:

40 When therefore the lord of the vineyard shall come, what will he do unto those husbandmen?
41 They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those miserable men, and will let out the vineyard unto other husbandmen, who shall render him the fruits in their seasons.
42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, The same was made the head of the corner; This was from the Lord, And it is marvelous in our eyes?
43 Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken away from you, and shall be given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.
44 And he that falleth on this stone shall be broken to pieces: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will scatter him as dust.
45 And when the chief priests and the Pharisees heard his parables, they perceived that he spake of them. Mt 21

11 And I say unto you, that many shall come from the east and the west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven:
12 but the sons of the kingdom shall be cast forth into the outer darkness: there shall be the weeping and the gnashing of teeth. Mt 8

28 There shall be the weeping and the gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and yourselves cast forth without.
29 And they shall come from the east and west, and from the north and south, and shall sit down in the kingdom of God. Lu 13

19 Thou wilt say then, Branches were broken off, that I might be grafted in. Ro 11

...thought you were done on this thread, or were you just referring to me? I could get my feelins hurt, you know...

 

[Aaron]

For example - often we hear racist propaganda about the Ashkenazi Jews (European Jews), that they are not descended from historical Jews. This is like the "Black people bear the mark of Cain" propaganda decades ago.

Oh, here it comes. Already trying to silence dissent with the catchphrases.

You must be right, after all, no Jew or Zionist ever engaged in racism or propaganda themselves.

 

[Aaron]

But we are talking about physical characteristics. So I do not get the "evangelical" commenent.

No, were defining a Jew. The evangelical comment was in your automatic citation of the Zionist State's politics...or rather your notions thereof, which are common notions among evangelicals...in attempt to rebut my assertion that the definition has nothing to do with ethnicity.

 

[percho]

I'll cut to the chase. Biblically, a Jew, or Israelite, was one who stood in a covenant relationship with God, ratified by an oath, signified by circumcision, to obey the law of Moses. The obligation extended to legitimate children born of Jews as well, so they were Jews at birth.

To be a Jew was not an ethnic thing. It was a covenant thing. That is why Edom was not considered Abraham's seed, though they were Israel's twin brother, and all the mixed multitude at Sinai was considered Abraham's seed, even though the multitude there was a veritable ethnic melting pot.

Today's Judaism has no relationship whatever with, and bears no resemblance to the Judaism of the Old Testament. It is a montrously deformed bastard child of a religion that had already morphed into a satanic abomination by the time Christ appeared. Pretty sure Satan himself has to hold his nose when reading the Talmud.

(I'm not saying Jews are bad people...well, most Zionists are bad people...but no, Jews are not any worse people than any other Christian or non-Christian, though they are worse off than any other non-Christian.)

The Hebrew race no longer exists. Elizabeth Warren is more Cherokee than any Israeli is Hebrew.

A Jew is one who identifies with Judaism.

Which IMHO in the exact meaning of, the bosom of the Abraham, in Luke 16. The beggar died in a covenant relationship to God through Abraham. He died in the faith of Abraham. From Heb 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises; And so also did the beggar.

 

[Psalty]

This is from a point being made here, that Jewish believers are still Jews, even though they're Christians, because it's an ethnic thing. They are the physical descendants of Abraham, and still get a slice of real estate in the Middle East.

Let's break that down.

Esau was just as much of Abraham as was Jacob. Why aren't the Edomites referred to as Jews, or heirs to the promises?

Ruth didn't have a drop of Abraham's blood in her. Was she a Jew? An heir to the promises?

The mixed multitude that went out from Egypt with the children of Israel received the law at Sinai. All the people answered together and said, "All that the LORD has spoken we will do!" Were all the people Jews? Heirs to the promises?

The stranger that was circumcised to celebrate the Passover...like any native-born Israelite, Exodus 12:48 NLT. Was he a Jew? Was he an heir to the promises?

Was Sammy Davis Jr. a Jew? Would he have been entitled to some real estate in the Middle East? What about Ivanka Trump? Is Israel™ now her "homeland"?

What is a Jew?

For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.
— Romans 2:28-29

 

[Psalty]

You just agreed that what Israel was seeking for was a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God (Heb. 11:10). The elect found it, and the rest were blinded, because they didn't seek it in faith.

Abraham looked for that city, and rejoiced to see His day, John 8:56. That city is the New Jerusalem, Mount Sion, the general assembly and the church of the first born, Heb. 12:22-

I will agree that we are part of that Zion now, but the Amillenialist stops in Heb 12 and fails to go in Heb 13. There is a literal Zion to come:

For here we do not have a lasting city, but we are seeking the city which is to come.
— Hebrews 13:14

 

[Psalty]

"Replacement" theology is a pejorative. The Church is Israel coming of age.


And the unbelieving natural branches are cut off, and are not included with us.

Friend, you are thinking of this backwards. Gentiles are included and graphted into Israel… they arent graphted into us.

But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive, were grafted in among them and became partaker with them of the rich root of the olive tree, do not be arrogant toward the branches; but if you are arrogant, remember that it is not you who supports the root, but the root supports you.
— Romans 11:17-18

We have been given citizenship into Israel, they arent given citizenship into the church.

remember that you were at that time separate from Christ, excluded from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. But now in Christ Jesus you who formerly were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ.
— Ephesians 2:12-13

 

[percho]

Who is a Jew? Heck, who is a Gentile?

From Gen 48:19

Hebrew - וְזַרְעוֹ יִהְיֶה מְלֹא־הַגּוֹיִם
LXX - σπέρμα αὐτοῦ ἔσται εἰς πλῆθος ἐθνῶν

Seed of him shall become fulness of Gentiles

These are the progeny of the youngest son of Joseph.

Are they the, "τὸ πλήρωμα τῶν ἐθνῶν," "fulness of the Gentiles," of Romans 11:25?

If not why not?

 

[JonC]

Oh, here it comes. Already trying to silence dissent with the catchphrases.

You must be right, after all, no Jew or Zionist ever engaged in racism or propaganda themselves.

I believe every nation has engaged in propaganda. They still do.

 

[JonC]

No, were defining a Jew. The evangelical comment was in your automatic citation of the Zionist State's politics...or rather your notions thereof, which are common notions among evangelicals...in attempt to rebut my assertion that the definition has nothing to do with ethnicity.

I did not realize you were claiming that being a Jew has nothing to do with ethnicity.

Obviously you are wrong, but it depends on what definition you are using.


In a secular sence a Jew is the people who descended from the Israelis that occupied Judea many centuries ago. It is like our native Americans. One's ethnicity as a Jew or native American can be verified through DNA tests.

What we know about the present day Israelis is that they are descended from the genetic peoples who occupied Judea and the present day Jewish people share a unique genetic markers even though they are dispersed throughout the world.

This has nothing to do with evangelical. It is secular (it is the same process used to determine native American heritage).


But science cannot test for religious belief.