Have fun in your efforts. As for me, I don't have time for sensational claims and games. The last thing to enter my mind is to try and "trick" Arminians or anyone else who calls themselves a non-Calvinist. I enjoy the free exchange of ideas the Internet provides, and my personality naturally gravitates towards debate. But when I debate it is to contend for the truth. Tricks are for magicians and charlatans.
You must think that those who hold to the doctrines of grace do so because they are engaged in some insidious plot to burden weak-willed people. Your view of 2 Timothy 3:5-7, in conjunction with the topic at hand, indicates as much. If you actually do believe that then I leave you with your delusions.
Facts present a real problem to fables. The overwhelming majority of Baptist churches in this country are not Calvinistic. The idea that "Calvinism has veritably owned theological popular thought for about 25years" is preposterous. The Founders Movement is a minority in the SBC. Self-proclaimed Reformed Baptist Churches are scarcely a blip on the Baptist radar screen. Some states don't even have one Reformed Baptist church! The doctrines of grace have always been in the minority since the post-Puritan age. Providentially, the doctrines of grace have gained traction in some evangelical circles. But instead of being the populace position it is simply becoming another voice at the table.
Most Reformed Baptist churches have eschewed the modern church growth movement. They are committed to evangelism, but also to raising godly families - organic growth.
I don't need to prove you mistaken. You've done an able job of that yourself. I have no need for such tactics. I stand on what I am convinced Scripture teaches. I know what I believe will be rejected by the majority. That's okay since I am know I will never convince the majority.
What is a Reformed Baptist Church?
Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Herald, Jun 4, 2012.
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HeirofSalvation Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
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You can have the last word....
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Appreciate the good reprint of what is a Reformed Baptist. And their reclaiming the doctrines of grace from the pelagian/arminian hordes of itching ears.
We have many man-centric Baptists on the Baptist Board, Herald. (and NOT implying any who have posted thus far believe in a false gospel or misunderstand grace; just stating the reality of the "broad" tree we Baptists bird roost in)
Don't take it personal if someone dislikes YOU because you espouse biblical truth. Matter of fact, expect it. I've been on the BB since the beginning (spring 2000) and have seen lots of people posting here that I wonder about. But you know what? They wonder about me!!
TO ALL - Let's keep a good spirit in the discussion of "Grace". Can't get a better topic! -
Bob,
Thanks for the encouragement. I don't take the criticisms, attacks, or mischaracterizations personal. I understand what motivates them. I remember back to the days when I didn't believe in the doctrines of grace. I felt the same way as some of our more vocal opponents here on the BB.
Grace to you, brother! -
Iconoclast Well-Known MemberSite SupporterHeirofSalvation said: ↑Herald said: ↑It is not fun...it is not a game.....you are obviously a talented rhetorician, and I could just as easily resort to that as you obviously can. You know how to use words like "charlatan" and you use them to good effect. I also know how to play that game and it will be only so long until you make your posts more convincing by changing "charlatan" to "mountebank". It is so painfully obvious to me that you clearly understand what I am driving at and you deny so by utilizing certain well-placed and powerful words, whilst also feigning ignorance. You absolutely know how powerful and convincing certain well-placed words can be (even if contending for a falsehood) and you know how to use them....this is the very crux of what I am debating.Click to expand...
There is nothing in my posts which suggests that. What I have suggested is that many of those who do, have indeed fallen prey to certain forms of rhetorical tricks such as the implicit equivocation between "grace" and "Calvinism". I am fully willing to recongnize the strengths (very real strengths) of the Calvinistic arguments and could probably successfully debate, convincingly so, those arguments to one unskilled in the word and convince them of their truthClick to expand...
The truth stands on it's own. No one takes a class on" rhetorical tricks".
many who believe the doctrines of grace now, at one time did not. They have been brought forward by the Spirit of God opening the word to their hearts.
Anyone can claim that.Nevertheless it is true for all who welcome the truth.
the argument....both of us are merely (and ably) engaged in the dialectic of our respective points of view. There is no "high ground" or "low ground" in a debate such as this....Only those who would pretend there is.......As example...I cite you here:
It is the very "tactic" of equivocating in the mind of the unlearned of the synonymity of "grace" and "calvinism" against which I argue. You indeed do have a need for such tactics and you are defending their use here. It will not be often that I will agree with Michael Wrenn but he is absolutely right with this.Click to expand...
Claiming the role of the martyr.........don't worry, 5 posts from now, I will find a way to work that in myself, and make myself the crucified and Messianic figure of persecution for the furtherance of truth......If I am skilled.....I will weave it into a correlation wherein my view is synonymous with Tyndale's who, while burning at the stake, cried "Lord open the king of England's eyes!"
People will weep when I do so....the dying martyr for the Arm. point of view will stand as the ultimate example of supreme self-sacrifice for the furtherance of truth.Click to expand...
Hopefully, anyone reading this thread will realize that this is a battle of rhetoric vs. rhetoric,Click to expand...
and they will take little or no stock in our exchange except to realize that the designation of Calvinism as the "Doctrines of Grace" is merely part and parcel of the same thing, which is merely what I am contending here. It is as much a game as you claim I am engaged in here.
Calling it the "Doctrines of Grace" is a trick of rhetoric............and exposing that............is the job of all legitimate and concerned Arminians.
Millions have now possibly seen this post, sleep in peace.Click to expand...Click to expand... -
I have a one word answer to the original OP's topic question: "wrong"! :)
Mods can now close this thread. :) -
Iconoclast Well-Known MemberSite SupporterMichael Wrenn said: ↑I have a one word answer to the original OP's topic question: "wrong"! :)
Mods can now close this thread. :)Click to expand...
I would like to help you overcome this aversion.Take one issue at a time.list what you are distressed about. -
Iconoclast said: ↑Michael,
I would like to help you overcome this aversion.Take one issue at a time.list what you are distressed about.Click to expand...
I was simply trying to lighten the mood a bit. -
Iconoclast Well-Known MemberSite SupporterMichael Wrenn said: ↑I am not distressed.
I was simply trying to lighten the mood a bit.Click to expand... -
Iconoclast said: ↑okay...I missed it,lol....I am a bit burned out right now...it went right over my head:laugh:Click to expand...
But hey, if you had any hair up there, that might have caught it. :)
Not an insult; I'm thinning, too. :) -
Iconoclast Well-Known MemberSite SupporterMichael Wrenn said: ↑That's okay.
But hey, if you had any hair up there, that might have caught it. :)
Not an insult; I'm thinning, too. :)Click to expand...
I never seemed to notice this psalm when i was younger, but it comes to mind more often now:
71 In thee, O Lord, do I put my trust: let me never be put to confusion.
2 Deliver me in thy righteousness, and cause me to escape: incline thine ear unto me, and save me.
3 Be thou my strong habitation, whereunto I may continually resort: thou hast given commandment to save me; for thou art my rock and my fortress.
4 Deliver me, O my God, out of the hand of the wicked, out of the hand of the unrighteous and cruel man.
5 For thou art my hope, O Lord God: thou art my trust from my youth.
6 By thee have I been holden up from the womb: thou art he that took me out of my mother's bowels: my praise shall be continually of thee.
7 I am as a wonder unto many; but thou art my strong refuge.
8 Let my mouth be filled with thy praise and with thy honour all the day.
9 Cast me not off in the time of old age; forsake me not when my strength faileth.
10 For mine enemies speak against me; and they that lay wait for my soul take counsel together,
11 Saying, God hath forsaken him: persecute and take him; for there is none to deliver him.
12 O God, be not far from me: O my God, make haste for my help.
13 Let them be confounded and consumed that are adversaries to my soul; let them be covered with reproach and dishonour that seek my hurt.
14 But I will hope continually, and will yet praise thee more and more.
15 My mouth shall shew forth thy righteousness and thy salvation all the day; for I know not the numbers thereof.
16 I will go in the strength of the Lord God: I will make mention of thy righteousness, even of thine only.
17 O God, thou hast taught me from my youth: and hitherto have I declared thy wondrous works.
18 Now also when I am old and greyheaded, O God, forsake me not; until I have shewed thy strength unto this generation, and thy power to every one that is to come.Click to expand...
29 Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing? and one of them shall not fall on the ground without your Father.
30 But the very hairs of your head are all numbered.
31 Fear ye not therefore, ye are of more value than many sparrows.
32 Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.
33 But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.
34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.Click to expand... -
Iconoclast said: ↑My hairs have long ago departed. I take comfort in the fact that i have all that God has decreed I have.[that is not the only reason I believe in the dreaded calvinistic teaching...but it is a fringe benefit as my egg timer has turned over]:laugh::laugh:
I never seemed to notice this psalm when i was younger, but it comes to mind more often now:Click to expand... -
Iconoclast Well-Known MemberSite SupporterMichael Wrenn said: ↑Well, I guess if you believe the state of your scalp was predestined, you don't have to fret over whether to get a hair transplant or not. :)Click to expand...
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Iconoclast said: ↑That is correct. I am who God has purposed me to be,and am fully responsible to do all those good works that were ordained for me. We have this treasure in earthen vessels that the excellancy may be of God and not of us.Click to expand...
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HeirofSalvation Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
I am a huge Ann Coulter fan myself.....largely because she knows the meaning of...and knows how to use words like "womanish" when referencing complaints. Passive agression is cowardly, and vaguely akin to that employed by terrorists.
(NOT implying any who have posted thus far)Click to expand...
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