One can define words all day long by dictionaries and lexcons. What matters is what God's word calls a work as it pertains to salvation.
Paul made this very clear, a biblical work of salvation is the exact opposite of believing and faith. THis cannot be denied.
"For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast." (Eph 2:8-9)
"But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness" (Ro 4:5)
Faith or believing is the opposite of works unto salvation, even if you want to call believing a work by your definitions, the bible still distinguishes between works of salvation and believing.
What is a Work?
Discussion in 'Other Christian Denominations' started by Heavenly Pilgrim, Mar 21, 2012.
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steaver
business, employment, that which any one is occupied
a) that which one undertakes to do, enterprise, undertaking
2) any product whatever, any thing accomplished by hand, art, industry, or mind
3) an act, deed, thing done: the idea of working is emphasised in opp. to that which is less than work -
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Works can be easily defined to be whatever he must give account for "according to his works" on the day of judgement. Works are whatever is generated from the heart of man - evil thoughts, words and actions:
Mt. 15:18 But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man.
19 For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:
Such things are said to be the basis for being the "works" by which man is judged by God:
1. Things out of the heart - Mt. 12:34 O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh.
35 A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things.
2. Words - Mt. 12:36 But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.
37 For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.
Thus "works" are what originates from men's hearts inclusive of their thoughts, words and actions - these are things they will be judged for "according to his works."
However, in direct contrast, justifying faith does not originate from the heart of men even though it is "with the heart man believeth" but originates from the "grace" of God working in and through men (Rom. 4:5, 16; Eph. 2:8-9; 11:6; Philip. 1:29; 2:13; Heb. 12:2; John 6:40,64-65). Hence, it is placed directly in contrast to the "works" of men.
Saving faith is explicitly said to be authored and finished by Christ - Heb. 12:2
Thus saving faith is a "work of God" not a work of men - Jn. 6:29
For it is God that worketh in the elect to "will" and to "do" whatever is "by grace" - Philip. 2:13
Hence, faith is "of grace" - Rom. 4:16
Therefore to him that "worketh not BUT believeth" - Rom. 4;5
So it is "by grace through faith...not of works" we are saved - Eph. 2:8-9
And if faith is "of grace then it is no more of works otherwise grace is no more grace.." - Rom. 11:6
CONCLUSION: Works are inclusive of "thoughts....words" and actions originating from the heart of man.
In the lost man, an evil tree can only produce evil fruit as Matthew 12:34-35 explicitly states. Therefore, justifying faith does not originate with the evil heart of man, and therefore not with the works of his evil heart (thoughts, words, actions) but with the grace of God (Rom. 4:5, 16; Eph. 2:8-9).
In a saved man "good works" originate with the NEW CREATION or NEW CREATURE produced by and empowered by the Indwelling Spirit of God (Eph. 2:10; 4:24; Col. 3:10. -
Unless some "works" are intrinsically "good" no matter the spiritual state of the doer then no one can do good works because the Bible teaches that we are all evil and no one seeks righteousness.
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bib
Now if a man says he is justified before God because he DID God's good pleasure, then he is stating that he is Justified by his works !
That word DO in Phil 2:13 is the greek word energeō:
13For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.
to be operative, be at work, put forth power
a) to work for one, aid one
2) to effect
3) to display one's activity, show one's self operative
it is even translated work 12 times !
Even though I perform or do something because God was working in me to do it, its still something I did, and if I attained Justification before God because of something I did, or God enabled me to do, its works ! -
Matthew 13: 18 “Listen then to what the parable of the sower means: 19 When anyone hears the message about the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what was sown in their heart. This is the seed sown along the path. 20 The seed falling on rocky ground refers to someone who hears the word and at once receives it with joy. 21 But since they have no root, they last only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, they quickly fall away. 22 The seed falling among the thorns refers to someone who hears the word, but the worries of this life and the deceitfulness of wealth choke the word, making it unfruitful. 23 But the seed falling on good soil refers to someone who hears the word and understands it. This is the one who produces a crop, yielding a hundred, sixty or thirty times what was sown.”
Nowhere does Jesus say what Calvinists say.
There were people who were looking for Jesus, they were looking for Jesus because they ate the loaves and had their fill. Those people did a lot of work looking for Jesus so they could get more food. However, Jesus tells them, “Do not work for food that spoils, but for food that endures to eternal life, which the Son of Man will give you.
THEN THEY ASKED
John 6:28 Then they asked him, "What must we do to do the works God requires?"
John 6:29 Jesus answered, “The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent.
You want us to believe that Jesus was talking about THEIR WORKING BY LOOKING FOR HIM FOR SOME BREAD MADE FROM FLOUR is NOT NOW ABOUT THEM DOING WORK THAT GOD REQUIRES. You know calling it the work God does for us is nonsense.
2 Peter 3:16 He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction. -
The Biblicist Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
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The Biblicist Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
11 He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
12 For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath.
13 Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
14 And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
15 For this people’s heart is waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with their eyes, and hear with their ears, and should understand with their heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them.
16 But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.
17 For verily I say unto you, That many prophets and righteous men have desired to see those things which ye see, and have not seen them; and to hear those things which ye hear, and have not heard them.
Don't like that part of scripture do you????
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We started with salvation and I have not deviated from that point.
There is not one good thing an unsaved man can do to merit salvation.
The unsaved man is always in the flesh.
He is also called the natural man.
He cannot put off his old self, for that is all that he has. Salvation is not by reformation, but regeneration. The unsaved man is not regenerated.
Keep on topic and don't throw in verses that refer to the saved.
An unsaved man cannot please God. An unsaved man cannot obey God.
An unsaved man cannot keep the commands of God.
This subject that we have been talking about is "the unsaved man."
In no way can he please God. He is always in the flesh.
His works are as filthy rags--completely useless to God. -
You would have to tell someone not saved that they might already be saved and not know it! With your beliefs, you have to tell the unsaved to wait around and see if you God saved them, and to do nothing. You do not speak what the Bible says.
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The Biblicist Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
His dialogue gave the proper cause and effect relationship between the new birth and gospel conversion. However, when God actually saves a person it is WHEN the gospel is being applied to them by the Holy Spirt in power so that while they are being drawn they are coming, while they are being turned they are turning and while they are being quickened they are repenting and believing. Since God does his part, my only part is to preach the gospel and call on them to repent and believe and IF they do then I know God has done his part IN them. However, all this is far way above your head.
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The J.W. as he explains God's word is the enemy of God, a friend of the devil, living in the flesh, and those that listen to him are committing sin in so doing.
The unsaved man cannot do anything good, period. Case closed.
The topic was the condition of an unsaved man. An unsaved man cannot put off the old man and put on the new man. It is impossible. It is impossible for him to live in righteousness and holiness and obey the commands of Eph.4:18-24, Scripture which only applicable to the saved.
You don't know how to stay on topic.
We are speaking of the unsaved man. The unsaved man cannot do good.
He is always in the flesh. He cannot please God. Everything he does is as filthy rags before God. Why don't you accept this? -
bib
3But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: Presnt tense, in a lost state !
4In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them. -
Biblicist and DHK,
I can easily prove that we can choose to believe in God.
John 7:17 If anyone chooses to do God's will, he will find out whether my teaching comes from God or whether I speak on my own.
I have just proven to you with scripture that it is our choice, AND in obeying Jesus’ teachings, Jesus will reveal himself. -
Who are you debating? Who are you talking to? Yourself?
Go and read over the posts.
Where did I say it wasn't. You are confused.
The topic I was discussing with you is that it is impossible for a man to merit salvation. All his good works mean nothing to Him. They are as filthy rags. A man in his unsaved state remains "in the flesh." He cannot do good.
What has your post got to do with this conversation?
What have you proved?
It is a complete non sequitor.
It is like two men discussing which is better: a green carpet or a red carpet to put in the church. Finally one of them says I think the best solution is to paint the walls. That wasn't the topic, but that is what you keep doing.
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That the elect are in a saved but not state when they believe is seen in Pauls statement here 1 Cor 1:18
For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.
The Preaching of the Gospel or the Cross is only being the Power of God unto them that are being saved, they are in a saved state ! To them that are in a perishing or lost state it is foolishness ! -
If man is as totally depraved as you teach, then he could not believe on his own, as you are now trying to claim he can. Since you now claim that man can believe on his own without first being saved, then you must also believe that man can confess before he is saved, as we are supposed to do before we receive the Holy Spirit.
You have been doing nothing but fighting me and saying we can do nothing God asks. I gave you scripture proving you wrong. Here it is again.
John 7:17 If anyone chooses to do God's will, he will find out whether my teaching comes from God or whether I speak on my own.
I have just proven to you with scripture that it is our choice, AND in obeying Jesus’ teachings, Jesus will reveal himself.
How can ANYONE do God’s will? YOU said the unsaved cannot do God’s will. John says, “IF ANYONE” chooses to do God’s will.
John is speaking about an unbeliever, for he says, “he will find out whether my teaching comes from God or whether I speak on my own.”
A believer does not wonder if the apostles spoke their own words. -
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