What is calvinism?

Scripture

Scripture declares the Jewish elect was cut out not because they were not the elect, but for unbelief.

The children of Abraham as Him, they believed God and credited to them the righteousness and that righteousness of Christ.

The Jews is the elect of God and those who were cut out was for unbelief.

We are included, adopted as children when we heard the Gospel of our salvation and believed.

The new Israel is those of faith.

 

And still no Scripture .... How long til we get some?

 

So your position is that Israel is the "formerly" elect, who fell by unbelief, correct?

 

Scripture

We have been given you scripture, that shows that those who were elected were already believers. Also why the Jews was cut out it was not because they were not elected, God wanted to gather them like a hen gathers He chicks. That they were cut out for unbelief, not because they were not elected, because they were

Sometimes we can't see past the veil.

Jesus is the only way, your election shows no hope, but faith in Jesus does.

I can't trust anything that i can be cut out of because of unbelief.

So i will continue to keep my faith in Jesus.

 

And still on Scripture.

Where? Skypair showed a few verses where the elect and believers are the same group. None of those verses show which come first. You have even attempted to show a verse to support your position yet.

Yet I gave three verses where election clearly comes before belief and the best that has been offered was based on failign to recognize that the words are the same words. You haven't even addressed those verses yet.

So why are there still no verses from you?

 

Scripture

Given scripture back that election is no guarentee, that they were being cut out for unbelief, and that we who have heard the gospel of our salvation must continue in God kindness or we will also be cut out.

Election is no guarentee, but Jesus does guarentee salvation. Whosoever believes in Him shall be saved.

 

I don't know if that was an answer or not, but let's assume that you're saying that Israel was elect, but fell from election through unbelief.

Now first of all that would shoot the "election by foreseen faith" theory right in the youknowwhat because Israel obiously could not have been elected based on foreseen faith if they did not have faith.

Secondly, if Israel was once "elect", but is not longer "elect", then were they ever truly "elect" to begin with? Why would God, in His perfect knowledge, "elect" a people whom He knows will be apostate?

Now doesn't all this about election of Israel start to make sense when we take what Paul is saying at face value? If we let Israel represent the entire Adamic race, having failed to achieve that which "he" seeks for, that is, justification before the law; and let the "remnant" represent those whome God had reserved for himself, those who in fact achieved that which "he" did not seek for, that is, justification by faith; if we do this, the doctrine of the election of grace begins to make sense.

Within the realm of Israel, there were an elect group, chosen by God and endowed with faith. It is to these elect people the promise of salvation applies.

But what about the Gentiles? Has God left them out? In no way, for within the realm of mankind (Adam), there is a remnant, chosen by God unto salvation by grace through faith. And this salvific election was the true means of justification all along.

God creates and disposes both individuals and nations as He sees fit and know one can say to Him "what doest thou?"

 

Becomming one

As long as we lift up other way's to salvation other than Jesus Christ like election we as a church can never be one.

Only through Jesus can we become one.

 

Jesus preached election.

Who did he say this to? "You have not chosen me"

Did he say it to believers or unbelievers?

 

Forgiven if it is confessed - is that confessed by unbelievers/non-elect or just by believers/elect?

You're using terminology that is not used in scripture, Larry. Show me in scripture the terms "common grace" and "saving grace" and show me how common grace pays for the sin of all men but saving grace restricts it to only the elect.

But that is my contention, Larry. There IS a before, a chronology. The "causative" reason for faith and regeneration is REPENTANCE and before that, belief.

Eph 1:4 -- "According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world,..." No "elect, Larry. Chosen IN HIM, Larry. How "in Him?" Because we believed IN HIM.

2Thes 2:13 -- "God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:..." Which came first according to other scriptures -- sanctification or belief? BELIEF, Larry.

2Tim 2:10 -- "...I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus..." Could Paul not have as easily said "for the believer's sakes?" Sure! I endure all things so that believers may obtain salvation in Christ.

Larry, I don't know what seminary you went through and I know you likely, like my pastor/nephew, don't have time to study this but you are misreading these passages.

I lay you 10 to 1 odds it doesn't say anything about where election or choosing comes in relation to foreknowledge. That you got from the study of Calvinism.

I won't disagree with this. But it does come AFTER foreknowledge.

[qote]But your verses do not tell us that they became elect because they believed. And that is a major failure on your part. You are reading your theology into Scripture and ignoring the verses that clearly contradict you.[/quote] Like I challenged -- tell us where election is before salvation (other than in God's foreknowledge).

Again, I agree. In eternity past, God knew who would believe and, thus, who He would "elect."

Larry, I'm at least as honest with scripture as you are. Please try to see why there are 2 sides to this debate. I've found much truth by researching my fellow brothers' theologies and realizing that there is truth in it. I have "come around to" the confession that faith is given of God. I have admitted that God gives the Son all who will be saved. Please try to at least understand someone who is learning and digging out the truth.

skypair

 

Only elect/believers confess sin.

First, we all use terminology that is not in Scripture, like Trinity, soteriology, etc. We use it because it describes a theological concept.

Common grace is God’s grace that is common to all men. It is why people don’t die immediately when they sin. Thus, all men without exception benefit from the atonement in some ways. But only those who believe are saved, having their sins paid for by the atonement.

It’s not chronological. It’s logical, or causative.

What do you think “chosen” is? It is the word eklegomai. It means “elect.”

Notice how you added to Scripture. I refuse to do that. But even at that, how were people chosen before the foundation of the world before they believed? That makes no sense.

Nope, in the passage, they were chosen for salvation from the beginning, and the salvation came through the setting apart of the Spirit (effectual call) and belief in the truth. The choosing was from “the beginning” which of necessity had to be before belief. You can’t believe before you are alive, but the election takes place from the beginning.

But again, read the passage. They are elect before they have salvation, and therefore before they believed. Paul endures prison and suffering for the sake of the elect so that they may hear the gospel and receive salvation, and with it eternal glory. You simply need to read the passage for what it says and not try to support your view out of it.

I have plenty of time to study these passages. How do you think I learned what they say? We have seen in just these three instances how you ignore what the passage says, add to it things that it does not say, all in the pursuit of supporting your position. That is a bad way to do theology.

Read it and send me my money.

First, you have been disagreeing with it all along. Second, foreknowledge is intimate knowledge. It is in essence to choose. It is not simply looking ahead to see what someone would do.

I showed you three clear places.

You have previously been disagreeing. But God’s choosing is never said to be based on foreseeing who would believe. You won’t one place where foreknowledge is attached to belief.

I think we have just seen that thoroughly debunked.

I know that. I have read both sides at length, and listened to people from both sides. I used to hold your position. Scripture convinced me otherwise. It was a contributing factor in my losing a position I had on staff at a church.

We are all doing this I hope. I certainly do not know it all. I don’t pretend to. I do know some things however. And some of what you are saying is not squaring up with Scripture. That is why I had to abandon it some years ago.

 

Elected

He elected Israel not by forseensfight, but to show that election cannot save you.

He did save those by foreseen sight those who will endure to the end to be saved.

We have to endure to the end to be saved, not going to to endure and be saved.

We are depended on Jesus not election and that is what Jesus taught, that whosoever believes in Him shall be saved.

We want to accept one scripture and make every other scripture to add up to that one to make our doctrine work.

Hebrews 3:
Warning Against Unbelief
7So, as the Holy Spirit says:
"Today, if you hear his voice,
8do not harden your hearts
as you did in the rebellion,
during the time of testing in the desert,
9where your fathers tested and tried me
and for forty years saw what I did.
10That is why I was angry with that generation,
and I said, 'Their hearts are always going astray,
and they have not known my ways.'
11So I declared on oath in my anger,
'They shall never enter my rest.' "
12See to it, brothers, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God. 13But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called Today, so that none of you may be hardened by sin's deceitfulness. 14We have come to share in Christ if we hold firmly till the end the confidence we had at first. 15As has just been said:
"Today, if you hear his voice,
do not harden your hearts
as you did in the rebellion"

16Who were they who heard and rebelled? Were they not all those Moses led out of Egypt? 17And with whom was he angry for forty years? Was it not with those who sinned, whose bodies fell in the desert? 18And to whom did God swear that they would never enter his rest if not to those who disobeyed[Or disbelieved ]? 19So we see that they were not able to enter, because of their unbelief.

 

John,

You weren't part of the band called "Twisted Sister," were you?? :laugh: Cause that explanation is about as twisted as it gets!

So you'd be saying that man can make a decision that doesn't affect God's sovereignty to sin which -- what, he does every day and God wants him to do?? to sin every day?? And that won't affect God's sovereignty over that man??

CONTROL resides in choice or lack of it. Leave sovereignty out of it for a minute. Sovereignty is getting one's long term design accomplished within the "warp and woof" of the "fabric" one is creating -- in this case, "time." Even God chooses when to intervene for control purposes and when not to, right?

skypair

 

Skypair

Keep up the good fight.

God didn't reach the first generation because of thier stuburness, but He reached the next generation and lead them into the promise land

 

Sorry ... See below

 

HUH?? Ever seen a Catholic confessional??

Technically, no. Man doesn't die immediately because God never said he would. The referent passages says "the SOUL [not body] that sinneth, it shall surely die." Even when Adam and Eve ate the forbidden fruit and hadn't been atoned for, they didn't die physically, did they.

Which is to say that the cause comes BEFORE the effect if I am not mistaken.

They had believed already in God's foreknowledge.

I'm tempted to say that God had a dream that came true. The essence of the "dream" was every detail of your life including every decision you would ever make -- good and bad. When God "awoke," He said, "I know [foreknow] that Larry will believe My call. I know how I will respond [just as I did in My dream]. I will be able [as I dreamed], once he believes in Me, to direct his spiritual gift [his purpose/election in My will] into the ministry. There he will grow in grace unto the likeness of My dear Son [make his calling and election sure]."

Actually, you might have just provided the key to your own understanding. They were chosen for sanctification from the beginning. BUT if you think that sanctification IS salvation (as Catholics do in taking communion, baptism, etc.), then that is your problem. It is much like you saying that belief is faith, isn't it?

I have heard Calvinists preach this very thing (sanctification IS salvation). In fact, it seems much of their sotierology is revovles around that assumption -- that the confessor/affiant is already saved/regenerated/elect and it is by the means of the indwelling Spirit that he/she repents (which is an integral part of sanctification, but means something quite different when one is repenting of their whole life.).

Again, do you notice -- "setting apart" is the actual definition of "sanctification," Larry.

Again, you are tracking true with a SANCTIFICATION model -- not a SALVATION model. Specifically, sanctification involves salvation/deliverance from sin in this life and preparation for rewards in the next. This is our "election" (what we were "chosen" for) for sure!

What makes the definition so? When you came upon that term in Rom 8:29 before you were "enlightened," what did you think it meant? I think if Calvinism wasn't so "hell-bent" of sanctifying people before they are saved, they would see the term for what it really is.

Wow! So you got a real committment to it now, eh? I hope you'll be able to say at some point that you didn't know all the facts then and now and repent yet again.

Larry, it seems to be coming down to the sanctification vs salvation models of sotierology that is at the heart of our disagreement. Would you agree? I mean, no one can be "set apart" by God until he has set himself apart to God, right?

skypair

 

Funny, I'm thinking this exact same thing while currently reading Sproul's Chosen By God. ;)

 

Yes, but confessing your sins to a man who cannot forgive and has no authority to “absolve” you of sin is not confessing your sins. A theology limited to Scripture (as it should be) refuses to call the biblical confession.

The “soul” is the only thing that dies. The body without the soul has no life. Sin should bring immediate physical death, but by God’s grace does not do so.

Yes, but not chronologically, as you seem to want to make it.

But you can’t believe in God’s foreknowledge. Belief takes place in time. Furthermore when you see “foreknowledge” it is always people that are foreknown, not faith as your position requires.

I would run from this temptation fast.

Sanctification simply means “setting apart.” It can refer to the growth in Christlikeness after salvation. It also refers to the settting apart for salvation such as in 2 Thess 2:13 and 1 Peter 1:2.

I would be interested to know what Calvinist ever said this. I have never heard it. This is a Catholic teaching, that confuses sanctification with justification. It is true that all who are genuinely saved will follow God in obedience at some level, not perfection, but direction of life.

yes, that’s exactly my point. These people were chosen for salvation, which comes through the setting apart of the Spirit for salvation and the belief in the truth for salvation. The choosing comes first, the setting apart comes second, and the faith comes third.

The use of the word, from its OT background and its NT usage.

I completely disagree

 

I just have to get these 2 cents in here:

Election means chosen. It doesn't ALWAYS mean chosen for salvation, it simply means chosen for some purpose. Israel was elected (chosen) as a nation to preserve God's word (among other things) but not all Israel is elect for salvation:

This quote shows that there is a SUBSET of Israel elect for salvation. Israel as a whole is not "the elect" when it comes to salvation.

Elect doesn't even always refer to men.

 

I agree with Npetreley. The true "elect" mentioned (in terms of humans :) )...

Rom 9:6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel.