And still no verses that tell us that election comes from faith. Why?
You say We know those are elected to salvation is through faith. How do we know this? Where did God say this?
What is calvinism?
Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by webdog, Jan 21, 2007.
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Scripture
The elected Jews was cut for unbelief, but we stand by Faith. We are not to be arrogant but afraid. If God did not spare these natural branches He will not spare us either So we are to continue in God's kindness or we will be cut out.
My faith will never be in election, because I found no hope in it through Israel.
My faith in my salvation will be in Jesus. He is my only hope.
Election is a false hope. Jesus is our only hope. I will never lift up election for salvation only Jesus.
He is the only door to election and His word is the Key. -
predestined
Through that He foreknew so He also predestined.
It maybe foolishness to them, but God elected by His foreknowledge.
Since it is by grace through faith, so it is those who He foreknew with faith that He elected. -
And still no verses ...
Why do you object to posting Scripture? Why not use Scripture to show us your position?
We all know why ... it is because you can't. There is not one verse of Scripture that places election after faith. Your position is not built on Scripture and that is clearly seen. -
[/quote]How can God send someone to hell for a sin that was paid for by Christ?[/quote] Again, it's tied to rejection of the Spirit, Larry. If it is up to us to believe (and it is), then it is unpardonable to not believe. And Rom 1 says everyone has been given enough revelation to believe. They are all without excuse.
Larry, I think you are using a "device" to claim that Christ's death is only "efficient" for some. That "device" is BELIEF -- unless you can show me something scriptural to the contrary. I almost can't believe we are having this discussion since you admit that Christ died for all sin, Lar.
skypair -
Mt 24:22 - the days are shortened for the elect's (those who are saved) sake.
Mt 24:23 - AC would deceive the very elect (already saved believers).
Mt 24:31 - He sends His angels to gather the elect (believers, Lar, not unbelievers).
Rom 8:33 - who shall lay anything to God's elect (believers already).
Titus 1:1 - I, Paul, a servant of God ... according to the faith of God's elect (believers).
Election -- 4 times in Rom 9-11 concerning ISRAEL, not indvidual salvation.
1Pet 1:10 -- make your calling and election sure. What was that order, Lar? Calling (when one is saved) and election (when one fulfills God's purpose for their life).
skypair -
Mt 24:22 - the days are shortened for the elect's (those who are saved) sake.
Mt 24:23 - AC would deceive the very elect (already saved believers).
Mt 24:31 - He sends His angels to gather the elect (believers, Lar, not unbelievers).
Rom 8:33 - who shall lay anything to God's elect (believers already).
Titus 1:1 - I, Paul, a servant of God ... according to the faith of God's elect (believers).
Election -- 4 times in Rom 9-11 concerning ISRAEL, not indvidual salvation.
1Pet 1:10 -- make your calling and election sure. What was that order, Lar? Calling (when one is saved) and election (when one fulfills God's purpose for their life).
skypair -
Belief and faith are NOT the same thing. Belief can be had where there is no proof but faith IS proof, Heb 11:1.
Your error regarding "elect" is that you see it bestowed on men. As a matter of fact, election is only another name for those correctly who believe in God.
skypair -
As the English language, here to its detriment, does not have a usual verb form for "faith" other than "believe", that is where we get this supposed difference. They are, in fact, the same thing, save one is a noun and the other is a verb.
Ergo, when one "believes", one has "faith"'
Beyond that, overall as to this thread, since there is no longer a 'C' vs. 'A', bit may I say to all:
Ed -
Jesus is my master
If one cannot be saved until they are elected, then Jesus is not the one who saved election does.
Our beliefs can change the more we grow and learn, faith can never change, like the word of God.
There is a difference between faith and belief a big difference.
Faith is trust no matter what and nothing can change it, belief is something we accept at the moment. -
Saved
We are saved by grace through faith.
Faith is the only way to enter election to salvation where only Jesus gets the praise
If you enter through election then it is election that gets the praise.
That is one thing that makes my spirit within me mourn is the calvinist praising and lifted up election over my Lord and Master and my God, and my Friend, Jesus -
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All this, and you still have offered no Scripture for your position. Aren't you a little ashamed to have not even tried? Should you really expect us to just take your word for it? Why not give us God's word? -
Election to salvation v. election
Election to salvation v. election
People confuse these two.
There has to be the initial calling of God, the first election.
We cannot come to Jesus unless we are drawn by the Father.
That is the effectual preaching. This has to come first, but being called does not mean you will be saved.
We can be like Abraham and have faith of the word of God or we can be like the young rich ruler and walk away.
The scripture clearly teaches the one that walks away will not be saved.
So faith in Jesus is the only thing that saved, that gives Jesus all the glory.
We are saved by grace through faith.
Election can not save you, but faith will.
As this scripture shows of the natural branches the original elect of God. Jesus also called His disciple's branches and if they didn't abide in Him, that they were good for nothing but the fire.
Romans 11: 17If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, 18do not boast over those branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in." 20Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid22Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.
But praise be to God.
23And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again.
Our salvation does not depend on our election, but faith in God. -
And still no verses that show that we are elected after we believe? Why?
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"HOWEVER..." See that HOWEVER, Larry?? HOWEVER, we speak the wisdom of God to them that are perfect.."(2:6) In other words, now he is going to reveal deeper wisdom ("spiritual things) to them who already had salvational "demonstration of the Spirit and of power." Larry, you're answering reflexively. Open the scriptures and try to concentrate, please. Paul is talking about his preacing to them before (2:1-5) and after (2:6-13) their salvation.
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skypair said:Think about it -- you are mistaking the word "elect" with "chosen." If you want to say "elect," find the verses for that. All the verses I supplied show believers being called elect -- never unbelievers, never believers when they were still unbelievers, Larry.
skypairClick to expand...
Are you joking?
Do you not know what the English word elect means?
e·lect v
1. vt to choose somebody by a vote, for example, for public office, an official role, or membership of some group
2. vt to make a decision to do something
3. vti to choose or select something, particularly a subject or course to study at college
4. vt to choose somebody by divine will for salvation
adj
1. chosen by a vote but not yet formally installed in office (used after a noun, usually in combination)
2. specially chosen by God for favor, salvation, or a task
npl
1. people specially chosen or favored by God, for example, those chosen by God for salvation
2. a specially privileged or gifted group (literary)
Encarta® World English Dictionary © 1999 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved. Developed for Microsoft by Bloomsbury Publishing Plc.Click to expand...
Means..
1) to pick out, choose, to pick or choose out for one's self
a) choosing one out of many, i.e. Jesus choosing his disciples
b) choosing one for an office
c) of God choosing whom he judged fit to receive his favours and separated from the rest of mankind to be peculiarly his own and to be attended continually by his gracious oversightClick to expand...
1) picked out, chosen
a) chosen by God,
1) to obtain salvation through Christ
a) Christians are called "chosen or elect" of God
2) the Messiah in called "elect", as appointed by God to the?most exalted office conceivable
3) choice, select, i.e. the best of its kind or class, excellence preeminent: applied to certain individual ChristiansClick to expand... -
Election to salvation.
We can see from the beginning of the word who God has elected to be saved from the word of God that those who have faith.
We have no problem with the elect of God.
We also can see from the beginning that being the elect of God does not assure you salvation from the jewish elect that was cut out for unbelief.
In all of this we see that just being the elect does not guarentee salvation, but that those who have faith our elected to salvation.
Whoever believes shall be saved.
We cannot understand the will of God by viewing a few verses but seeing the word of God from the begining to end. -
Jarthur001 said:Do you not know what the English word elect means?Click to expand...
They mean the same thing but not what Larry avers. The elect and chosen to a purpose, not to salvation. Whether individual or nation, they are only become "elect" or "chosen" for God's purposes by being saved by God. Does that help?
skypair -
We can see from the beginning of the word who God has elected to be saved from the word of God that those who have faith. ... In all of this we see that just being the elect does not guarentee salvation, but that those who have faith our elected to salvation.[/quote[WHERE CAN WE SEE THIS???? I have been asking for several pages now and you keep saying this but refuse to show us where. So far, I have seen it only in posts under your name. I have yet to see any Scripture for this.
Whoever believes shall be saved.Click to expand...
So where's the Scripture?
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