The unpardonable sin, in Scripture, is attributing the works of Christ to the power of Satan. Read the context and that becomes clear. It is not about an individual rejecting the Holy Spirit.
But again, the issue is that if Christ actually paid the debt for all sin, then there is no basis on which God can justly send someone to hell to pay for sins that have already been paid for. That would be an unjust God, exacting a second payment on top of the one Christ made. That's not the topic of this thread, per se, but it is an important problem with a position.
Yes and no. It is available to all because the atonement is sufficient for all. It does not mean that all sins were paid for in the same way. Again, the justice of God is at stake.
This is, to me, total compromise of the justice of God.
This is a total denial of the sufficiency of Christ's atonement. You can't say taht Christ died for all sins and then say that he didn't die for the sin of unbelief. If he didn't die for the sin of unbelief, then there is one sin he didn't die for, and that sin (in your system) is apparently "paid for" by fixing the problem humanly speaking. I totally reject that on biblical grounds.
Nope, solved that issue a long time ago. But that isn't the point here.
It's not my delineation. It's Christ's. Scripture presents all humanity as subjects of Satan, in his kingdom, until we are saved. I think we are seeing just how seriously your theology is flawed with statements like this, and others.
What is calvinism?
Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by webdog, Jan 21, 2007.
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Election
Please forgive me, but election to salvation cannot happen until after faith.
Without faith you cannot enter the grace of God. -
However, election is not the same as "entering into the grace of God." -
saved
The scripture clearly states that we are saved by grace through faith.
You cannot be saved without faith.
So it is effectual preaching, faith and repentance, and then election.
It is people with faith that have been elected to salvation before the foundation of the world.
It has been that way from day 1 starting with adam and eve. -
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Scripture
Romans 10:17
Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ.
Romans 10:14How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? 15And how can they preach unless they are sent? As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!"[Isaiah 52:7]
See you cannot be elected without hearing the message. This teaching of election before faith is hyper-calvinism. Why go out if they are already elected for salvation.
You can still believe in the love of God for the world and the hope they have through Jesus Christ. You do have good news for the world. -
Two choices
We can either not believe in the love of God for the world and see predestination before foreknowledge or you can continue to believe in love of God for the world and believe that God had predestined before the foundation of the world that those with faith that He foreknew will be saved. Yes faith is given to us by God through His word, but we can accept it or not accept it.
I still believe in the love of God for the world and we are the messengers of it. -
Congrats, you 'talked me into' commenting on a thread, where I had no intention of doing so.
Ed -
False no
I found im my studies of the scripture when you study predestination either they believe one or the other. When I have discussed with people about it.
Maybe you can enlightening me on the right one. -
So you haven't shown any Scriptural support that one is elect after faith. Why not? -
Hi Larry, :wavey:
You're nothing if not faithful, man!
What did the people in Rom 1 do, Larry? They rejected the Spirit of God -- even "His eternal power and Godhead" were revealed and rejected. (1:20) "They KNEW God and glorified Him not." (1:21) That is UNBELIEF.
This is (sending people to hell whose sins are paid for), to me, total compromise of the justice of God.[/quote] Not at all!! It would be unjust for God NOT to forgive all sin if He offers it to some! It is total justice for God to forgive all sin and then offer to save everyone who would believe. They would be setting their own destiny -- that's fair!
skypair -
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Believe
We cannot not believe unless we hear as in we are not elected to salvation until we hear in plain english and is simple.
That it is effectual preaching, faith and repentance, and then election.
We are saved by grace through faith and we cannot be saved unless we are sent and they hear. simple.
I do not agree with your order of salvation it is not scriptual.
There is people that can be elected to salvation but are not because we are not going.
God wants all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth and we are messengers of it.
Why can't we just believe the word of God. -
quote]UNBELIEF, Larry! U-N-B-E-L-I-E-F. You're "blowin' right past" the real reason some aren't saved! You're not thinking God will accept anyone who doesn't believe, are you??[/quote]No, but if Jesus paid for all sin, then he must have paid for the sin of unbelief. If he paid for the sin of unbelief, then God cannot justly send someone to hell for their sin of unbelief that was paid for by Christ. Think about it.
How can God send someone to hell for a sin that was paid for by Christ?
Second, God is not bound to offer salvation to anyone. If I offer my son a dollar bill, and don't offer it to the boy down the street, I am not unfair. He is not entitled to it and has no complaint that I don't give it.
Third, theology is determined by revelation, not by our human sense of fairness.
Fourth, if God sends someone to hell for sins that have been paid for, then God is unjust.
Scripture says it, Larry.Click to expand...
Well, reject it from scripture then -- but show your source.Click to expand...
The sin of unbelief is not atoned for by choosing to believe. It is atoned for by Christ's death. -
[quoet]We cannot not believe unless we hear as in we are not elected to salvation until we hear in plain english and is simple.
That it is effectual preaching, faith and repentance, and then election.[/quote]Where is this in Scripture? You have posted yet again without Scripture. Why? Do you have none?
We are saved by grace through faith and we cannot be saved unless we are sent and they hear. simple.Click to expand...
I do not agree with your order of salvation it is not scriptual.Click to expand...
Why can't we just believe the word of God.Click to expand...
You want us to believe hte word of God but will not use the word of God to convince us. -
Pastor Larry said:Election, effectual calling, faith and repentance, regeneration, justification, baptism/union with Christ, Adoption, Sanctificaiton, Perseverance and Preservation, GlorificaitonClick to expand...
There was NO predetermination -- only foreknowledge. Everyone's first "contact" with God is called our "calling." To make it "effectual" in one case and "ineffectual" in another MAKES THE POINT THAT THERE IS FREE WILL operating. Effectual/ineffectual only speaks of the outcome of one calling on different people (For instance, some who are called the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, etc. time don't come but do come later. Thus, according to Calvin, that same call is "ineffectual" even for some "elect!"). Thus, those adjectives have nothing in the world to do with elect/non-elect.
Then the next thing that has to come is obedience (belief and repentance) unto justification of God ("for Abraham believed and it was counted to him for righteousness"). At this point, God gives us faith
Then God "gives" (John 12:36) or "translates" (Col 1:13) us into "the kingdom of His dear Son" (OT saints get this in the MK) where we are given the Holy Spirit of regeneration/baptism of the Spirit, adoption, sanctification, preservation (notice, these all come by the Holy Spirit indwelling. That is, we can't be regenerated, adopted, sanctified, preserved without the Spirit be in us! That is how every believer enters Christ's kingdom.
Now that you are in Christ's kingdom, you are elect! God, your Father, DOES have a plan for your life. If you follow and obey Him, you will become more like Jesus every day! :thumbs:
1 Cor 2 reminds us that the natural man does not recieve the things of the Spirit of God and cannot know them. That is the "soil" that is not prepared by the Spirit. They are unsaved and cannot understand.Click to expand...
Again, Calvin is NOT the most reputable source for your scriptural interpretation.
No, the parable of the sower has nothing to do with dispensations. It deals with the human heart. That is why it says that it deals with the human heart.Click to expand...
skypair -
There was NO predetermination -- only foreknowledgeClick to expand...
Everyone's first "contact" with God is called our "calling." To make it "effectual" in one case and "ineffectual" in another MAKES THE POINT THAT THERE IS FREE WILL operating. Effectual/ineffectual only speaks of the outcome of one calling on different people (For instance, some who are called the 1st, 2nd, 3rd, etc. time don't come but do come later. Thus, according to Calvin, that same call is "ineffectual" even for some "elect!"). Thus, those adjectives have nothing in the world to do with elect/non-elect.Click to expand...
Now that you are in Christ's kingdom, you are elect!Click to expand...
1Cor 2:14 is talking about the "deeper things of God," Larry.Click to expand...
Again, Calvin is NOT the most reputable source for your scriptural interpretation.Click to expand...
So far as you have been able to independently determine, that is. See that worries me, Larry. A Christian can come along and show you how the whole passage (Mt 13) is one coherent picture and you dismiss his Spirit "out of hand."Click to expand...
The more we talk Skypair, I have to go back to an oft repeated phrase, that you simply do not seem to have interacted much with Scripture and what we believe. It seems you started with a position to defend, and read everything in light of that.
That is why you are willing to have an unjust God who sends people to hell for sins that were paid for.
That is why you have election after faith, in spite of the fact that there is not one verse of Scripture that supports that. If there were, you would have posted it by now. But you keep dodging because you have none.
There are so many holes in your position it is unreal. It just seems like you haven’t thought much about it outside your little box. And that makes discussion very difficult. -
Pastor Larry said:There are so many holes in your position it is unreal. It just seems like you haven’t thought much about it outside your little box. And that makes discussion very difficult.Click to expand...
Ed -
scripture
I did give you scripture.
First the preaching, because we cannot believe unless we hear and then faith, and then election. Whosoever believes shall be saved.
Those who He foreknew, He also predestined, foreknowledge comes first.
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