Oh so you are, in fact, a dispensationalist, I see. Just not one in the vein you suppose Scofield and Darby to be, right?
Ed
What is dispensationalism
Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by christianyouth, Jul 4, 2007.
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Preach it, PL, Preach it! :thumbs:
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Pastor Larry says:
In Galatians 4:26 says: "But Jersualem which above which is above is free, which is the mother of US ALL."
This verse is not speak of ethnic physical nation, neither it speaks of limited group - Jews only. It speaks of us as Christians both Jews and Gentiles. Jerusalem which is above speaks of God's city - New Jerusalem(Christ described it in John 14:1-3) and even, described in Revelation chapter 21 too.
We are Jerusalem.
Church never replace Israel. Israel is now expanding, because God already grafted Gentiles unto the tree join with believing Jews, as it described in Romans chapter 11.
Also, in Hebrews 12:22-23 say: "But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumable company of angels. To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect."
It speaks of saints are come to mount Zion which is in heaven (Rev. 14:1), and unto New Jerusalem, where the Church is dwelling in New Jerusalem with Christ.
It doesn't limited just for Jews (ethnic nation) only, also, it included Gentiles, anyone whosever have faith in Christ, all are one same in Christ's (Gal. 3:26-29). Notice, Galatians chapter 3 is not discuss about future restoration physical tiny nation - Ethnic Israel as flesh, it speaks of spiritual - salvation.
In Hebrews 11:9-16 tell us, "By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise. For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God. Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised. Therefore sprang there even of one, and him as good as dead, so MANY AS THE STARS of the sky in multitude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable. These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. For they that saysuch things declare plainly that they seek a country. And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned. BUT NOW they desire a better country, THAT IS AN HEAVENLY: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city."
Dispensationalists saying, that God promised Abraham, that they(Jews) shall possess their own land that would be fulfilled in the millennial kingdom.
But, Abraham were looking forward city which is above -New Jerusalem. Abraham was not looking at earthly city. Because, Modern Jerusalem shall be destroyed and pass away at the second coming. We do not need earthly Jerusalem, we shall dwell in God's city, which it shall never, never destroy, it is an everlasting.
Galatians 3:29 says, "And if YE(you) be Christ's THEN are YE Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise."
We as Church are belong to Christ's, even, we are part of Abraham's seed of promise.
Ephesians 2:11-22 telling us, we as Gentiles were being aliens & strangers apart from the commonwealth of Israel. Commonwealth means citizenship. But, NOW we are in Christ, because He broke down the wall between Jews and Gentiles, both reconciled became one through Calvary.
Eph. 2:19 says, "NOW there ye are NO MORE strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God.
This verse telling us, right now, we as Gentiles are no more strangers and foreigners, but we are part of God's family.
Notice Ephesians 2:20-22 very important. It say:
"And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; In whom ALL the building fitly framed together growth unto an holy temple in the Lord: In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit."
This passage telling us, Jesus Christ is our chief corner stone, well also, He is our rock. This is speak of Church.
Israel is Church. Church is Israel. Even, Jesus is Israel! Church doesn't 'replaced' Israel. Israel is currently expanding because of Calvary.
Bible doesn't teaching us, there is currently divided within the body of Christ, it teaches us, the unity of the body of Christ.
New Jerusalem is FOR saints only, whosoever anyone have faith in Jesus Christ only - salvation!
Understand clear?
In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen! -
DPT,
Notice that every verse you posted deals with the church, the body of Christ, in which there is unity in Christ. But there are several things you are ignoring:
1. The NT passages that distinguish Israel and the church.
2. The OT promises made that have never been fulfilled to the nation of Israel.
These are significant issues that you are not dealing with. You say Galatians 3 is not about the restoration of Israel. You are correct. It is about the church, not Israel. But it operates off the premise that Israel and the church are different, and it explicitly states that the promise has not been annulled.
Sufffice it to say that you are dealing with only half the issue and the half you are not dealing with is what shows your position to be incorrect.
Read the NC (Jer 31:31-40) and explain the whole passage, starting with who it talking about and what will happen to them. That, in and of itself, shows your position to be incorrect. -
Bill.
The "true vine" John 15:1-2 -- Christ is the true vine. All believers who ever lived come because of His Sacrifice and by faith in God. BTW, we call this "justification" and all believers are first justified before they are sanctified and glorified. But there are 2 different "programs," Bill.
The "olive tree" Rom 11:16-24 -- this represents the "religious privileges," that is "sanctification," of believers. But as you can see, there is a period in which the natural branches are cut out and the wild (Gentiles) grafted in. Sanctification is also called "election" and during this period, Israel is NOT "elect" but the Gentiles are elect according to the purposes of God. One "program" is temporarily postponed on account of UNBELIEF and another put in it's place.
Then there is the "fig tree" Luke 13:6-9, Mt 21:19, Mt 24:32 --- Now watch this: Christ (the "certain man") came to the "fig tree" (national Isreal) that was not producing fruit and the Pharisees represented how they would "dig and dung" it. Three years later (end of Jesus ministry), there was no fruit and the "man" said "Cut it down. Why [does Israel] cumbereth it the ground?" In Mt 19 we see that Jesus directly cursed the tree and it withered. In Mt 24:32 we see that it will revive. But in between, the church is the glory of Christ in the earth.
The point? The "fig tree," national Israel -- not the church, will be the physical symbol of "glorification" of Christ in His kingdom. The church will already have been glorified in heaven before this occurs. Israel will rule with Christ and David on earth as still an entirely separate program for their sanctification. followed by their rapture to heaven while God renews the earth, Rev 20:11.
skypair -
I am no dispensationalist but rather covenant theology based, slightly modified. But I would grant that God still have enthnic Israel in mind in his grand scheme of things. -
I would have some commonality with dispensationalists but separate on how we arrived at those shared views. I believe in a "new" New Covenant, not a better or refreshed covenant. I am a historical premillennialist believing that the millennium will be ushered in after Christ's second coming. I tend to accept Revelation metaphorically while understanding it within a futuristic subset.
There are other areas that separate me from dispensationalists but I'll save them for future discussions. -
Pastor Larry wrote:
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And you, in fact, did make a distinction in more than one economy, that makes one a 'dispensationalist' by the definition given, no??.
That does not mean one has to follow Scofield, by any stretch. (BTW, Scofield has some major differences with Darby (and also some with Scripture, IMO), but people overlook this, in the haste to 'condemn' all dispensationalists as one and the same.) Not believing in a pre-trib rapture does not necessarily make one "not a dispensationalist". And believing that "all Isreal" is the believing remnant does not cause one to be "not a dispensationalist", either.
And according to the NT, Paul was the first "dispensationalist", for he names two specifically, "the dispensation of the fullness of times", which is future, in the context, "the dispensation of the grace of God", and implies at least two more in Ephesians 3. I'll go with Paul on this, personally.
G'nite, all.
Ed -
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Hey Bill Brown!
Perhaps you will understand this paradox via some symbology that the Bible uses.
The "true vine" John 15:1-2 -- Christ is the true vine. All believers who ever lived come because of His Sacrifice and by faith in God. BTW, we call this "justification" and all believers are first justified before they are sanctified and glorified. But there are 2 different "programs," Bill.
The "olive tree" Rom 11:16-24 -- this represents the "religious privileges," that is "sanctification," of believers. But as you can see, there is a period in which the natural branches are cut out and the wild (Gentiles) grafted in. Sanctification is also called "election" and during this period, Israel is NOT "elect" but the Gentiles are elect according to the purposes of God. One "program" is temporarily postponed on account of UNBELIEF and another put in it's place.
Then there is the "fig tree" Luke 13:6-9, Mt 21:19, Mt 24:32 --- Now watch this: Christ (the "certain man") came to the "fig tree" (national Isreal) that was not producing fruit and the Pharisees represented how they would "dig and dung" it. Three years later (end of Jesus ministry), there was no fruit and the "man" said "Cut it down. Why [does Israel] cumbereth it the ground?" In Mt 19 we see that Jesus directly cursed the tree and it withered. In Mt 24:32 we see that it will revive. But in between, the church is the glory of Christ in the earth.
The point? The "fig tree," national Israel -- not the church, will be the physical symbol of "glorification" of Christ in His kingdom. The church will already have been glorified in heaven before this occurs. Israel will rule with Christ and David on earth as still an entirely separate program for their sanctification. followed by their rapture to heaven while God renews the earth, Rev 20:11.
skypair -
Compared
J. Edwin Hartell,
Covenant Theology (CT) is Calvinistic theology. CT places a strong emphasis on the sovereignty of God and predestination
Dispensationalism has been present in many forms for centuries. It was not as developed as it is today, but it was present.
LM -
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By the way, if you've "grown weary of the lack if interaction with Scripture" on the topic of dispensationalism, why discuss it at all? And yes, you did quote Jeremiah 31, but I didn't consider your comments exegetical. Let me key on a portion of that passage:
Interestingly enough we see this passage in Jeremiah used by the writer of Hebrews:
Larry - I'm not asking you to believe this. I'm simply making a case for what non-dispensational Baptist believe about Israel, the church and the New Covenant.
May God bless you. -
The New Covenant was established for the House of Judah and the House of Israel in the first century. The two sticks are one and now exist with all the nations as the Church.
Eze 37:16 Moreover, thou son of man, take thee one stick, and write upon it, For Judah, and for the children of Israel his companions: then take another stick, and write upon it, For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim, and for all the house of Israel his companions:
Eze 37:17 And join them one to another into one stick; and they shall become one in thine hand.
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Ed -
Grasshopper said:Well done. This is why I said such a statement as "the new covenant has not been established yet" should send up red flags. Larry is honest in his interpretation if dispensationalism is true. Most dispensationalist believe the New Covenant was established which would completely contradict their position.
The New Covenant was established for the House of Judah and the House of Israel in the first century. The two sticks are one and now exist with all the nations as the Church.
Eze 37:16 Moreover, thou son of man, take thee one stick, and write upon it, For Judah, and for the children of Israel his companions: then take another stick, and write upon it, For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim, and for all the house of Israel his companions:
Eze 37:17 And join them one to another into one stick; and they shall become one in thine hand.
Click to expand...
Ed -
Larry - you may have very well offered your exegesis in the past, but I have not read it. As far as "all Israel" being believing Israel, I'm pleased you concur. But it was a Covenant Theology view long before dispensationalism came on the scene.Click to expand...
By the way, if you've "grown weary of the lack if interaction with Scripture" on the topic of dispensationalism, why discuss it at all?Click to expand...
uote:
Jeremiah 31:31-34 31 "Behold, days are coming," declares the LORD, "when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah, 32 not like the covenant which I made with their fathers in the day I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, although I was a husband to them," declares the LORD. 33 "But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days," declares the LORD, "I will put My law within them, and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 34 "And they shall not teach again, each man his neighbor and each man his brother, saying, 'Know the LORD,' for they shall all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them," declares the LORD, "for I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more."
First, who is this covenant made with? Nowhere does it say it is made with the New Testament Christians. It is made with the house of Israel.Click to expand...
If a dispensationalist is using this passage as a proof-text for a future for national Israel then they have one major problem. They can't use it to defend the New Covenant. It's not both. It either is the promise of the New Covenant or a promise for national Israel. Which is it?Click to expand...
Notice how you stopped citing after v. 34. Why stop there? In the following verses, God makes it clear that the NC does involve a restoration of national Israel to the land in peace. That, as you admit, does not apply to NT Christians.
Interestingly enough we see this passage in Jeremiah used by the writer of Hebrews:Click to expand...
There's a lot going on here. We started with Jeremiah and his promise of a New Covenant for Israel and Judah. I believe we have already proved that the promise to Israel and Judah is not of a physical covenant but of a spiritual covenant that will have physical benefits.Click to expand...
1. Notice the mention of the nation and not Christians (as you pointed out).
2. Notice that God says he will not cast Israel the nation off forever (vv. 35-37).
3. Notice that God promises the nation with whom the NC is made that they will be restored to the land marked out by the physical landmarks (vv. 38-40). That, by definition, is not heaven, or the heavenly city. There is no doubt that Abraham was looking for a heavenly city, but that was not the whole of the promise. You leave out the whole of the promise which is future restoration of Israel to the land.
As I said earlier. If Jeremiah 31 was all about Israel, then I would concur with dispensationalisms view of a return of national Israel to the land of Palestine as part of a futurist eschatology.Click to expand...
But the New Testaments uses of this passage, and other references to the New Covenant in the New Testament (which I quoted) point to the New Covenant being universal in nature (to Jews and Gentiles).Click to expand...
The eschatological promises made to Israel are actually made to the church.Click to expand...
If the promises to Israel are fulfilled in the church, then God is made out to be a liar because he promised a group of people something that he will not do for them, but will in fact do it for someone else.
Here’s an analogy: You promise your son, “I will take you to the park to play tonight.” But when evening comes, you actually take your neighbor’s son and leave your son at home. You lied to your son because you said you would do something for him in the future that you did not do.
I'm simply making a case for what non-dispensational Baptist believe about Israel, the church and the New Covenant.Click to expand...
May God bless you.Click to expand... -
This is why I said such a statement as "the new covenant has not been established yet" should send up red flags. Larry is honest in his interpretation if dispensationalism is true.Click to expand...
Most dispensationalist believe the New Covenant was established which would completely contradict their position.Click to expand...
The New Covenant was established for the House of Judah and the House of Israel in the first century. The two sticks are one and now exist with all the nations as the Church.Click to expand...
I think the major issue here is a lack of exegesis on your side. You start with your position and then go to Scripture and support it. We should start with Scripture and then arrive at a position .
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