Regeneration is the initial experiential act of sanctification which has to do with the spiritual CONDITION of your own PERSON.
Justification is the LEGAL POSITION you have before God in regard to the CONDITION and PERSON of Christ.
Don't confuse the two! One has to do with your actual condition whereas the other has to do with your legal position.
Your actual spiritual condition is that you are spirtually "dead" in tresspasses and sins. That is why your person needs regeneration which is being spiritually "quickened."
While dead in sin as your actual spiritual condition, your legal position before God is condemnation to the PENALTY of death.
Don't confuse the two! Your spiritual state of death is not one and the same as your legal penalty of death.
Regeneration changes your actual spiritual state from "dead" to "quickened."
Justification changes your LEGAL POSITION from the penalty of death to the decree of EVERLASTING LIFE.
Don't confuse the two. Your actual spiritual state of being "quickened" is not your legal position of eternal life.
Faith in the gospel produces justification in a legal change from the penalty of death to the decree of eternal life based upon the actual condition of the Person of Jesus Christ before the Law in your position.
Regeneration by the Spirit produces spiritual life in the creation of a believing heart or new heart.
Don't confuse the two. Spiritual life by regeneration logically precedes judicial life by faith in the gospel.
However, there is no such thing as an regenerated unbeliever any more than there is such a thing as a unregenerated believer. Regeneration and faith occur simultaneously in a cause and consequence logical relationship. Regeneration is the cause and conversion is the consequence. Regeneration produces a BELIEVING HEART and it is with that new covenant heart man believeth unto righteousness - Ezek. 36:26-27
If you learn the difference between regeneration and justification, between your own person and your legal condition, between spiritual life versus judicial life then the foolish argument that faith precedes spiritual life is completely exposed as error. and you won't be caught up in the endless debate between Calvinism and Arminism
What is first? Life or Faith?
Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by The Biblicist, Mar 27, 2015.
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The Biblicist Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
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I agree with this in large part, yet it may not clarify for those who have fallen into the Calvinist/Arminian debate how exactly one spiritually dead and separated from God comes to place faith in Christ. What leads to regeneration and justification.
What would tell them?
God bless. -
I'm troubled by the last sentence.
The answer is believe.
John's gospel was written to encourage people to believe.
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The Biblicist Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
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The Biblicist Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
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Would Nicodemus have been privy to that which was kept secret from the foundations of the world? Or would Nicodemus have understood the Lord to speak of the Kingdom prophesied, which the Disciples believed would appear through Christ?
Did Peter understand the spiritual Kingdom the Lord would establish when he took up the sword to prevent Christ from dying?
Does the Lord identify Peter's intentions here...
John 18:10-12
King James Version (KJV)
10 Then Simon Peter having a sword drew it, and smote the high priest's servant, and cut off his right ear. The servant's name was Malchus.
11 Then said Jesus unto Peter, Put up thy sword into the sheath: the cup which my Father hath given me, shall I not drink it?
12 Then the band and the captain and officers of the Jews took Jesus, and bound him,
...?
God bless. -
Repentance is conversion? Worldly sorrow leads...to salvation?
God bless. -
The Biblicist Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
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The Biblicist Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
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When the Comforter ministers to the unbelieving, He enlightens them to truth. It is not unusual for this Ministry to take time, rather than an immediate response, right? I know for myself I believed the truth long before I turned to Christ in faith. I understood I was a sinner that was headed for Hell. I sorrowed over my sin. I did not attain to that perspective through anything in my own ability, simply acknowledged what God showed me.
But I did not place my faith in Christ immediately.
Therefore I would suggest regeneration is the result of first the Ministry of the Comforter (Who showed me my condition, which previously I was unaware of), secondly the acknowledgement of truth, and third turning to Christ in faith.
Again, it has nothing to do with ability that Scripture acknowledges that I did not have. It is a process of understanding, believing, repenting, and then faith.
To put this ministry in perspective, many will go through the same process, believe the truth they are shown...and reject it. A non-response is still rejection.
Again the three primary means of revelation are the internal witness we are born with, Creation, and direct revelation. I would suggest that when Christ stated "I will send another Comforter" that implies an existing "comforter." Prior to Christ's earthly Ministry there was the Word of God which was the primary comforter, which prophesied Christ the Comforter, Who sent "another" Comforter, the Spirit of God with the specific ministry of enlightening men to the Gospel...which was not revealed to men prior to His Coming.
But exposure to the Word of God apart from the enlightening Ministry of the Comforter does not allow natural men to understand the spiritual things of God, the Gospel being at the very top of the list.
A natural man can pick up a Bible and be saved but that result will be due to the Spirit of God making the truth known.
Ezekiel 36:24-27
King James Version (KJV)
24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.
25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
Regeneration results in the new creature: cleansed, new heart, new spirit, and the indwelling of God.
A friend of mine is fond of saying "Regeneration is not the indwelling," which is true enough, however...we cannot separate the two. Regeneration and all that it implies (the new creature) is the result of the reconciliation of man and God. It is because God indwells us that we are made new, something we were not before. And what we were not before was in union with God, we were separated from Him and incapable of understanding that.
One passage to consider for now:
Hebrews 6:4-6
King James Version (KJV)
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.
The assumption most will make about this passage (which begins in Ch.5 and could be bracketed at v.12) is that in view are born again believers, because it is forgotten that the Comforter came to minister to...unbelievers. To glorify Christ.
The Heavenly Gift is the Work of Christ in it's totality, and unbelievers taste of this gift when they are ministered to by the Comforter. Look at this statement as referring to the same thing, rather than a list of disassociated aspects of salvation:
4 For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,
5 And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,
Can we ascribe all of this to one Ministry? I think we can. Because this is exactly what the Comforter does: enlightens (which implies the "tasting" and "partaking"...and keep in mind this is said of the "Gift," not salvation), and the "tasting" of the Word of God refers to the truth being revealed to the natural man. The "powers" would, in the historical context, look back to the many miracles witnessed by those in view, which if you back up to ch.5 has as a focus those associated with the Lord though severely rebuked for their ignorance of the Lord and the Word of God. They should have been teachers but were in need of being taught again basic principles which were found in the Word of God, again in the historical context meaning the Hebrew Scriptures, not the New Testament. While the New Testament was being circulated among the Body, the principles of Christ in view are that which was foundational contrasted with that which was complete, meaning that which was being revealed to men at the time.
The key to putting the Calvinist/Arminian debate to rest is to stress the necessity of the Comforter's Ministry to the natural man in order that he might understand the spiritual things of God, namely...the Gospel.
God bless. -
Do the foundational principles of the Word of God describe this Kingdom. You and I both know this was the result of the Work of Christ, but the question remains, was this Kingdom revealed to them?
Just as a suggestion I would ask you to consider the teachings of Christ within His earthly ministry in light of the possibility that this Kingdom was not revealed before Pentecost. Can we look at Christ's teachings and consider the revelation of the Mysteries revealed through the Spirit not to be in view, and the Lord ministering specifically to Israel with a base of Scriptural Prophecy in view. Twice He stated He was come unto the Lost Sheep of Israel...only (another sola, if you will, lol).
Consider:
Luke 19:12-15
King James Version (KJV)
12 He said therefore, A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return.
13 And he called his ten servants, and delivered them ten pounds, and said unto them, Occupy till I come.
14 But his citizens hated him, and sent a message after him, saying, We will not have this man to reign over us.
15 And it came to pass, that when he was returned, having received the kingdom, then he commanded these servants to be called unto him, to whom he had given the money, that he might know how much every man had gained by trading.
Note the Nobleman went into a far Country to receive a Kingdom. When is the Kingdom established for those left behind? It is not established until...His Return. Clearly Christ is in view.
So in regards to Nicodemus and his understanding, again just as a suggestion, consider that the Kingdom in view is not the Spiritual Reign of Christ but the actual Kingdom. This is the Kingdom which the disciples went out to preach (enabled by the Holy Spirit) which they were commanded...
Matthew 10:5-7
King James Version (KJV)
5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:
6 But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
7 And as ye go, preach, saying, The kingdom of heaven is at hand.
To mistake the "gospel" they preached as the Gospel of Jesus Christ in which specific revelation of the Atoning/Reconciliatory Work of Christ is in view is a mistake, in my view.
Just give it some thought, and again, consider Christ's teaching in light of that.
God bless. -
He told him how to be born again in the simple language of verses 14-16:
Joh 3:14-16
(14) And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
(15) That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
(16) For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Those who looked in faith, believed and were healed.
Those who in faith, believe in Christ will be saved.
So it was with Nicodemus. He had to look to Christ and believe, not only Him, but the words that he was telling him.
The only kingdom a Jew was thinking about at that time would be an earthly kingdom which Jesus answered him. Even on the day of His ascension the disciples asked Jesus about Him establishing His Kingdom. A Jew would have no thought of a "spiritual kingdom" this early on his Jesus ministry.
Nicodemus was a rabbi who knew the OT scriptures well. There are dozens of Scriptures that speak of a literal kingdom that God will establish for His people, the Jews.
Nicodemus had to believe by faith what Jesus was telling him.
So it is with every one of us. The gospel comes first. Faith comes second. And then regeneration and justification. Regeneration and justification all happen simultaneously. They cannot, for all intents and purposes be separated. However, the gospel and faith can be separated from the latter.
Repentance and regeneration do not go together; rather repentance and faith go together. Repentance is the flip side of faith.
Repentance is a change of mind with respect to one's attitude toward God.
At one time man lived in rebellion to God. Then he repents. He changes his attitude toward God. Instead of rebellion or living in a state of rebellion he now, by faith, lives in a state of submission to God.
This happens when by faith he trusts Christ as His Savior. The Holy Spirit now indwells him and he wouldn't want to live any other way. His live is changed. The two (repentance and faith) go together. When one comes to Christ by faith he repents. They are two aspects of the same thing or two sides of the same coin which result in change or regeneration.
Justification/conversion/salvation/sanctification, etc. all take place at the same time. They are all simultaneous. It is an event, not a process.
Many Calvinist will take the example of Cornelius and say it is possible for one to be regenerated four days before salvation. This is ridiculous. It is all one event. We don't have regenerated but unsaved individuals running around.
The gospel and faith are necessary to salvation.
1Pe 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever. -
The Biblicist Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
When the Comforter ministers to the unbelieving, He enlightens them to truth.[/QUOTE]
The ministry of the Spirit as the Comforter is to God's elect period. Prior to regeneration both elect and non-elect undergo natural enlightenment by and exposure to the Law of God with its interaction with conscience. True repentance occurs at the precise point of regeneration. Gospel repentance is not a prolonged feeling, experience or action, but is the instantaneous transaction or change of the intellect from unbelief to belief as there is no middle stage. It is the instantaneous change from resistance to submission as there is no middle stage. It is the instantaneous change from love of sin to love of light there is no middle stage. That instantaneous change is regeneration and the experience is gospel conversion.
What you FELT and EXPERIENCED as conviction prior to that instantaneous change was NATURAL conviction that varies with sensitivity of conscience being exposed to light. This MISERABLE experience can continue over a long period of time in different degrees of intensity but it is not to be confused with the gospel repentance wrought by instantaneous regeneration. Regeneration is always conveyed by perfect and Aorist tense verbs as a completed punctiliar action. -
The Biblicist Well-Known MemberSite Supporter
Think about it. The lost unregenerate SPIRITUAL STATE is not the consequence but the cause for Judicial condemnation to eternal death is it not. You would never say that you are condemned in order to become spiritually dead because you were born spiritually dead as your spiritual condition and then the manifestation of sin brings you under the legal condemnation and penalty of death by the Law.
Likewise, the justification by faith for the change from legal condemnation with the legal penalty of eternal death is due to the spiritual change from the condition of spiritual death to spiritual life. Legal life is the manifestation of spiritual life, as spiritual life is the cause and legal life the consequence but simultaneous action in regard to time.
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Not sure I would agree with the term "Gospel repentance." What is the basis for this term?
John 16:7-9
King James Version (KJV)
7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;
This assures us that the Comforter ministers to the unbelieving.
And it is just a given that those who are saved are the Elect.
The Biblicist said: ↑Prior to regeneration both elect and non-elect undergo natural enlightenment by and exposure to the Law of God with its interaction with conscience.Click to expand...
The Biblicist said: ↑True repentance occurs at the precise point of regeneration.Click to expand...
Again, repentance does not equate to regeneration.
We can call it "true repentance" when the result is regeneration but that does not preclude repentance among unbelievers which results from the Comforter's Ministry.
The Biblicist said: ↑Gospel repentance is not a prolonged feeling, experience or action, but is the instantaneous transaction or change of the intellect from unbelief to belief as there is no middle stage.Click to expand...
One can believe...and not be saved.
One can repent...and not be saved.
One can do both and resist the Holy Spirit.
It is only when one believes that which is shown them, repents and turns to Christ in faith that they are born again.
The Biblicist said: ↑It is the instantaneous change from resistance to submission as there is no middle stage.Click to expand...
The Biblicist said: ↑It is the instantaneous change from love of sin to love of light there is no middle stage.Click to expand...
Progressive Sanctification involves both the efforts of God and the believer. The believer is going through a continual process of growth whereby the former can be helped or hindered by the latter.
The Biblicist said: ↑That instantaneous change is regeneration and the experience is gospel conversion.Click to expand...
To deny the Comforter's Ministry to the World (unbelieving) denies something very basic in Scripture. No natural man, of his own free will or ability...seeks after God. They are blind to their condition and incapable of repentance...because they do not have an eternal perspective of sin and it's consequence.
The Biblicist said: ↑What you FELT and EXPERIENCED as conviction prior to that instantaneous change was NATURAL conviction that varies with sensitivity of conscience being exposed to light.Click to expand...
It neglects the Ministry of the Comforter.
The Biblicist said: ↑This MISERABLE experience can continue over a long period of time in different degrees of intensity but it is not to be confused with the gospel repentance wrought by instantaneous regeneration.Click to expand...
Can one be born again apart from repentance? Or be born again with "natural repentance?"
The Biblicist said: ↑Regeneration is always conveyed by perfect and Aorist tense verbs as a completed punctiliar action.Click to expand...
The question remains "How is one born again, is this something he chooses, or something God does for him."
We know that the natural man does not understand his condition, thus he will not choose salvation in Christ.
Thus is it written, "We love Him because He first loved us."
Before we became aware of God He was aware of us, and has made Himself known to us that we might be saved.
God bless. -
The Biblicist Well-Known MemberSite SupporterDarrell C said: ↑Positional Sanctification was not in view, but repentance and the fact that believers will continue to repent of their sin even after salvation.Click to expand...
Darrell C said: ↑Not sure I would agree with the term "Gospel repentance." What is the basis for this term?Click to expand...
Darrell C said: ↑John 16:7-9
King James Version (KJV)
7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;
This assures us that the Comforter ministers to the unbelieving.Click to expand...
The "world" here refers to the Gentiles or all nations, races, genders and classes of people as in Romans 11:11 or the ministry to the elect of all tribes, nations, genders and classes.
Darrell C said: ↑So you take an Arminian view that men have the ability to comprehend the spiritual things of God?Click to expand...
Darrell C said: ↑One is not regenerated apart from repentance, thus it must precede regeneration.Click to expand...
The intellect of the lost man is in a state of unbelief and needs to be changed to belief - there is no middle stage between unbelief and belief - you are either one or the other. Therefore, the CHANGE is instantaneous.
The affections of the lost man are in a state of enmity against God, love sin, hate light and must be CHANGED to love light and hate darkness. There is no middle twilight zone, you are either one or the others.
The will of the lost man is in a state of rebellion against God and is not subject to the Law of God, the gospel of God and neither indeed can be and must be CHANGED to submission. There is no middle ground, you are either in rebellion or in submission.
Regeneration is the CHANGE as it removes the OLD heart and gives you a NEW heart that is believing, is submissive, is loving light. Your experience of that change is called repentance. -
robustheologian Well-Known MemberSite SupporterThe Biblicist said: ↑However, there is no such thing as an regenerated unbeliever any more than there is such a thing as a unregenerated believer. Regeneration and faith occur simultaneously in a cause and consequence logical relationship. Regeneration is the cause and conversion is the consequence. Regeneration produces a BELIEVING HEART and it is with that new covenant heart man believeth unto righteousness - Ezek. 36:26-27Click to expand...
The Biblicist said: ↑If you learn the difference between regeneration and justification, between your own person and your legal condition, between spiritual life versus judicial life then the foolish argument that faith precedes spiritual life is completely exposed as error. and you won't be caught up in the endless debate between Calvinism and ArminismClick to expand... -
The Biblicist Well-Known MemberSite Supporterrobustheologian said: ↑I'm glad you said that regeneration LOGICALLY precedes faith. People get thrown off when someone says regeneration comes before faith to think that we're talking about CHRONOLOGICALLY (even though scripture doesn't eliminate that from being a possibility.
Well said. Spiritual life gives us the right to eternal life. :thumbs:Click to expand... -
robustheologian Well-Known MemberSite SupporterThe Biblicist said: ↑Nice to make your acquaintence!:applause:Click to expand...
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"Regeneration must precede faith. This, though assumed as a certain fact, may be justly doubted: for the page of inspiration does not warrant our supposing, that any one is born of God, before he believes in Jesus Christ" —Abraham Booth, "Glad Tidings to Perishing Sinners"
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