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What is Lordship Salvation?

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by Reformed, Dec 30, 2017.

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  1. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    IMO It's a nothing burger.

    Jesus is LORD over ALL not just Christians but some folks (babes) NEED TIME to realize God's love for us and reciprocate, almost any christian worker knows that and has played nurse maid to babies.

    Otherwise they leave and don't come back - but don't STOP PRAYING. I shouted it - maybe they will hear it.:)

    HankD
     
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  2. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known Member
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    Can I leave and not come back ? Brian told me God would punish me!

    I don’t recall ever not believing, not being kind to people, not loving ... but this religion thing is just to much to pay attention to any more . You can see the decisions it creates. It’s frankly absurd.
     
  3. thatbrian

    thatbrian Well-Known Member

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    Is that man's problem, that he just needs more time to warm up to God?
     
  4. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known Member
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    LOL...it’s been my experience that there is no problem with God, it’s man made religion they hate. And because of that, they are walking out in great droves. See, people respond to love not punitive measures to keep people reined in.
     
  5. Reformed

    Reformed Well-Known Member
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    It is very similar to your question in post #43. If someone corrupts good theology is that a theology problem or the individual's problem? It is good to remember that the modern Lordship Salvation controversy started when John MacArthur responded to bad theology that had permeated evangelicalism at the time. Finneyism produced a horrible outlook on soteriology, discipleship, and sanctification. The net result of that bad theology was high recidivism rates on professed converts; systemic biblical illiteracy; and motivation by guilt. My last sentence is fodder enough for a few new threads! Sorry for the rabbit trail in the last few sentences, but bad theology has a spiderweb-like effect.
     
  6. Reformed

    Reformed Well-Known Member
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    Friend, you are not far off from the truth. It is not only man-made religion people are walking out on, it is the compromise of the truth. The reason I had such a difficult time finding a church home when I moved to Central Florida was not the lack of churches. There are more churches between Lakeland and Orlando than Starbucks in Seattle! Many of these churches preached short, feel-good messages. To quote the Wendy's lady, "Where's the beef?" Thankfully, "many" does not mean "all". It took some time, but I did find a good bible teaching church. I honestly believe that if churches get back to preaching the gospel in power and in truth, they will have an impact in their neighborhoods. Maybe I am being a little simplistic, but I believe it.
     
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  7. thatbrian

    thatbrian Well-Known Member

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    I'm neither condoning nor condemning these churches, but trying to understand where you are coming from. What are/were you after? If you read the sermons preached in the book of Acts, you will see that they are very, very brief. Also, what's wrong with feeling good after hearing the gospel proclaimed?

    Is there a nationally-known preacher that you think does a great job in this regard?
     
  8. Reformed

    Reformed Well-Known Member
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    I am using feel-good as a pejorative. Think Our Daily Bread devotional as the level of teaching.
     
  9. Reformed

    Reformed Well-Known Member
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    I can think of a few. John MacArthur, the late R.C. Sproul, Alistair Begg, Mark Dever, Jim Savastio...I can continue. But nationally well-known preachers are the exception. The mid to small size churches are where most pastors labor. The pastors who are faithful in proclaiming the Word seldom receive notoriety and that is for the best. The reason I choose the church I did was not just because the pastor preaches the Word. The level of biblical literacy permeates this church. My heart was encouraged when I attended my first community group. Lay members knew the Word. You can tell they not only were well-taught, but that teaching took hold. I know there are other churches like that in our nation. The more the better.
     
  10. thatbrian

    thatbrian Well-Known Member

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    Yes. I know. I was trying to see what was under your remark. I wasn't sure that you weren't going to the opposite extreme as the "feel good" folks by desiring to get "beat up" by a sermon in the way that some people refer to as "hard preaching", which to me, is a euphemism for preaching the law, not the gospel.

    Yes. Evangelicalism in the US is in a shambles. It's so bad that we've had to drive 30-60 minutes to churches in which someone actually opened a Bible and preached from it. No skits. No rock convert. No topical talk. No, "Life Skills Training" pep talks in place of sermons. . .

    It's bad out there.
     
    #50 thatbrian, Jan 1, 2018
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  11. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    EWT, He loves you, we love you.

    HankD
     
  12. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    Possibly (via the influence of the Spirit of course).

    HankD
     
  13. thatbrian

    thatbrian Well-Known Member

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    Hmmm. I thought that is was due to his hatred of God and his sin that men hid from God. Not only hid, but in all out rebellious hatred of Him, they nailed Him to a tree.

    John 15:18; "If the world hate you, ye know that it hated Me before it hated you"


    Why do the nations rage and the peoples plot in vain?
    The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together,
    against the LORD and against his Anointed, saying, (ESV)

    ". . .slanderers, haters of God, insolent, arrogant, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, . . .

    "You shall not worship them or serve them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children, on the third and the fourth generations of those who hate Me,

    "Those who hate the LORD would pretend obedience to Him, And their time of punishment would be forever.

    No one seeks after God, Hank.
     
    #53 thatbrian, Jan 1, 2018
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  14. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    John 3:21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.


    HankD
     
  15. thatbrian

    thatbrian Well-Known Member

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    Who does that verse describe, Hank? Does it describe you? You came to the light so that it may be clearly seen that your works had (prior to knowing God) been carried out in God?

    Does it describe any unbeliever? Did a former unbeliever come to God as an innocent who has not done evil? Unbelief itself is evil.

    Hank, there is only One man who is described by verse 21, and, on the flip side, all people are described in verses 19-20. All men are guilty, ashamed, fearful; therefore hiding from God, just as Adam and Eve did.

    John 3:19–21

    [19] And this is the judgment: the light has come into the world, and people loved the darkness rather than the light because their works were evil. [20] For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his works should be exposed. [21] But whoever does what is true comes to the light, so that it may be clearly seen that his works have been carried out in God.” (ESV)
     
    #55 thatbrian, Jan 1, 2018
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  16. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    Again it has to do with the works of the Spirit.

    Acts 11:24 For he was a good man, and full of the Holy Ghost and of faith: and much people was added unto the Lord.
     
  17. FollowTheWay

    FollowTheWay Well-Known Member
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    Sorry I'm coming into this discussion late. First, I believe that a true salvation is a born again experience that results in a new creature with changed priorities and a changed lifestyle. That being said, the real test is who the person has become and not so much on what they do. Of course these are related.

    I have a question for the "Free Grace" believers. My question is how do those who reject the necessity of this change in a person (which actually takes place over a period of time) explain the two best descriptions of the Final Judgement in the Bible which appear in MAT 25:31-46 and REV 20:11-15?

    Who are the Sheep in MAT who are judged according to their works?

    [Mat 25:33 KJV] And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.
    [Mat 25:34 KJV] Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:
    [Mat 25:35 KJV] For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
    [Mat 25:37 KJV] Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed [thee]? or thirsty, and gave [thee] drink?
    [Mat 25:40 KJV] And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done [it] unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done [it] unto me.

    What does REV 20:12 mean?

    Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
     
  18. Rob_BW

    Rob_BW Well-Known Member
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    2nd post, 3rd point:

    3) that all people, believers and unbelievers, are accountable for their works, receive recompense for what they do in this life, and will be judged at the end of the age (in two separate judgments) to determine degrees of reward (believers) or degrees of torment (unbelievers) in the life to come, but not to determine their eternal destinies.
     
  19. FollowTheWay

    FollowTheWay Well-Known Member
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    Biblical support? To my knowledge, the Bible says nothing explicitly about two judgements. Christ will return and then THE Judgement. The two passages of scripture are talking about the sheep and the goats, the saved and the unsaved. That's what is said. It has nothing to do with rewards.
     
    #59 FollowTheWay, Jan 1, 2018
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  20. Rob_BW

    Rob_BW Well-Known Member
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    So how many needy do I need to help to ensure my salvation? What's the formula?
     
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